Christian Mystics, No. 3In App Only

Christian Mystics, No. 3 | Yeshuans Sunday Schooled with Shawn McCraney

Transcripts:

Okay, welcome to Sunday School. It's October 18th, 2026. We're going to get through the 2nd and 3rd century mystics, there's five of them, and talk about some of the things they bring to the table so we can start asking ourselves, well, why do these things exist? Should they exist? And, you know, why don't they exist? Or why are they criticized? But we'll begin as usual with a word of prayer.

Hear the word of God, set to music, and sit in silence. Father, Yahava, we thank you for life and for loving us so much. You gave us your only begotten son, Yeshua of Nazareth, to give us his life and teach us the way, provide the way to you. And we just pray that your spirit will be with us abundantly. And we pray that you'll be with Mags and Delaney behind the scenes who are working on the technology to get this out to people who watch at home and for our live studio audience and that your will and ways will be known, not mine, not man's,

not the spirit of man, but the spirit of Christ. So we pray for these things now in Yeshua's name. Amen. Okay, we are pursuing information in an open format together in these Sunday schools.

So if you have comments, questions, or challenges, especially to know what we're talking about, you know, here and now in this conversation. If you have other ones, it's fine, you know, about the ministry or whatever. But we're just trying to stick to what we're talking about. Bring them up. Delaney and Mag's bringing them up, and I can read them, and we'll go from there.

You know, and I have one already. It's from Charlie. It says, my question to Sean is your last episode you explained to us that your shortcomings and your bad habits came to an end because the spirit moved on you. Can you explain a little bit more about what that felt like in your heart, what happened to you, or even have any emotion in this? Thank you.

So that's kind of what we are going to weave in as we go through and talk about the mystical experiences of these forefathers and foremothers in the faith and how they had these experiences. And then I have had a similar experience that dovetails in really closely with a lot of what these people have talked about.

Prior to it, I had faith. I walked in faith and read the Bible and struggled with my sins, struggled with my flesh, but made a commitment that I was not going to do anything to fix it myself. because I had a direct engagement with God on a roadside in 97. I was going to continue to rely on that direct engagement through the Spirit and the workings of the Spirit and not through religious stuff, machinations, not through any kind of thing, fasting, devout praying.

I was just going to walk in faith and grow. And we will talk about what happened, but I'll tell you this. uh radical radical more radical than when i first came to know christ in 97 and it's brought about things in me that i never saw possible it's changed me as a human being and real i mean i try not to bs you on anything and there's no bs in this it's uh real stuff so that's what we're working toward and i'll give you the details of that as we come to other mystics who speak of the similar thing one of the things i've personally challenged about

uh christian mysticism is their religious need to put their flesh into subjection um to strict regimentations and we're going to read about some of those especially when we begin in the fourth century next week if we do it next week and like i said my walk has always been based just in faith i will not would not subject my flesh to religious conformity because i didn't think that that was how god worked i thought he worked through the spirit and so i almost denied them to tell you the truth i would pray you know

and things uh but uh so uh this is what happened in terms of uh thc just to let you know Now, I allowed myself to use THC. First, it started with dabbling with it about three years ago. And before that, it was in high school just a little bit, not much at all. And then I started... dabbling with it to see how it worked.

And I got into a regimen where I would use it only on Saturdays and Sundays. And I don't know if you know it, but I use milligrams gummies and I use somewhere between 30 to 50 to 70 milligrams a day on Saturday and Sunday of every week for the past two and a half years. And I was able to function. I was able to understand God.

I was able to present Delaney says I present much better without it and there's probably truth to that and so I'm just testing things I'm not afraid to test them because he's fulfilled everything on our behalf and so I wanted to see for myself But this is what I wrote in my journal, just to share it with you.

Last Saturday, it had been up since 11 p.m. Friday writing, and I drank two Diet Dr. Peppers, then went at 5 a.m. to Starbucks, drank two 16-ounce black iced coffees, and then on my way to Deshaun the Baptist in Ogden, consumed two more Diet Dr. Peppers because I was fasting and I needed energy. And bottom line, I was overly amped up, and I knew that When I start my day off like that, without much caffeine, I'm never going to go to sleep. It just stays with me.

So after a month of choosing, no THC, choosing because of the spirit led me. You don't need it anymore. You're going to go in and do this. I was free from it. And I stopped taking it for the month. But I thought, you know, I need something to help me sleep. And I thought, well, I'll just take 10 milligrams.

10 milligrams of THC and see if it'll help me sleep. And it did. It helped me sleep and it had very little head high effect. You wouldn't know it at all that I was on it. But the real value was I was able to experience after a month of not having it in my system and then putting 10 milligrams in my system, I was able to experience a comparison of him in me.

And my findings, I was able to see that no THC brought significant changes in my spiritual acuity and insight and sensitivity than when I had it in me. Now, the thing is, when you have it in you, you think you're fine. And you think you're coping and you think it's all there. But because I had not used it and then just used a little bit, the next day, two days, five days, I could see there is a tangible difference in me, within me, of having it in me and not when it comes to God.

Now I could sleep better. But when it comes to God, definitely it had an effect. I had less clarity. I had less peace in the world. And I was more distant. I was less connected. And worse yet, it made me more connected to my former flesh. I found myself, even on that little dose of it, more drawn to the things of my flesh that when I experienced this change that Charlie asked about, that has left me.

So it showed that it works and operates in our flesh and in this world. And I had to test it to see. I just don't take what people say, at least in my own experience. So I know that for me, which is only the reference points I've got, is these results showed me that since I experienced what I call convergence, and we're going to explain what that is in the future, THC is not in accordance with his will for me.

I'll never judge somebody else. If they ask me my opinion, I'll tell them what I found. The real thing that I found is that if the addition of something like THC to my system will cause obscurity in the things of the spirit, then perhaps the subtraction of things of my flesh through fasting and prayer and meditation will enhance them.

That's how it worked. I realized by adding something synthetic or natural to my system that alters me and it causes me to stop having the direct clarity with God, then perhaps denying my flesh, like many of the mystics are going to talk about. that that's actually viable valuable now you'd say well you're stupid of course it's valuable fasting always there but not necessarily because i've i know people who are addicted to fasting and and addicted to these these things and that's another thing i learned that if the spirit is behind these things with

you you can fast for days without a problem But if you're doing it through your flesh, like ritualistically through religion, because you're trying to make God love you more, forget about it. So it's really the intent and the heart of why you're doing these things. And I'm only sharing them with you. They're only about me.

I'm not saying they're about you, but for me, this is what I found. and take it for what it's worth and so uh lessons learned wisdom gained and all glory to my father for the liberty he gives us in this life to pursue him in spirit and truth and find out so i mentioned that we are going to read a lot about fleshly mortification in the coming months and i wanted to weigh in on the topic from a first-hand experience and uh and we'll talk more about those things as we go this morning i want to ask if anyone online has any more questions

and i don't see anything there So let's proceed forward and reading about a few Christian mystics and talking about them. There's the first one is in the first, second century, and his name is Hermas. And maybe you have heard of a book that he wrote. It's very famous among many Christians even today called The Shepherd of Hermas.

All right. And he was a Christian writer and former slave who lived in ancient Rome. And he's best known as being the author of that book, an apocalyptic text that was so super popular, super popular in the early church. Now, Christians today cite the early church patristic fathers as having this, they're so close.

Well, at that time when those patristic fathers were so close to the truth, the shepherd of Hermas and his book was extremely popular. So that opens us up to a whole bunch of questions. It's believed that the book wasn't included in the apostolic record because it lacked apostolic authority. But interestingly, some of the patristic fathers called it scripture. Some of those patristic fathers that everyone cites, Irenaeus and Origen and all these different names, they thought it was scripture.

Now, we have to really think about that, don't we? Were they closer to the truth and therefore they had better clarity or were they more deluded? I don't know the answer to it. I'm bringing it forward for us to question and hone our faith and see what we believe and accept. Hermes was born in Aquilia, and he was enslaved to a woman named Rhoda in Rome.

After being freed, he transitioned into being an entrepreneur, and he made a lot of money, and then he lost it all. He was the brother of Pope Pius I. who served as the Bishop of Rome around the middle of the second century. So very close in what the power base was doing in growing into the Catholic Church ultimately.

The Shepherd of Hermas consists of five visions. Okay, now you got to ask yourself, what do you think of people who have visions? Because this guy had five visions, 12 mandates or commandments, and 10 parables or similitudes. It emphasized repentance, moral purity, forgiveness of sins. So none of it was bad in terms of what you believe as a believer.

But what would you say if someone said, hey, I have a book about my five visions and new commandments? Because the early church patristic fathers thought this was viable. So much so that the shepherd of Hermas is contained in the oldest Bible manuscript we have. The Codex Sinaiticus, I think. There is the shepherd of Hermas is in that Bible.

Now, what are we to say? We have gone off on dogma about extra biblical writings. We call them extra biblical. But this one is fascinating to me. I mean, I just love to see this kind of thing as exceptions to the rules that we make now and see how do we test it? What do we say? The text was widely read, copied, regarded, as I said, Clement of Alexandria, Irenaeus, Tertullian. They all considered it as scripture.

These are early church fathers that are always cited by our scholars today as being so close to the truth. Amazingly, it's found in Codex Sinaiticus. So really quickly, let me go through this. The first section contains revelations, okay? Given to Hermas through an elderly woman who appeared to him in vision.

And what she did was she started off old. And then she slowly in the visions became younger and younger, younger till she ultimately represented to him the church, the bride that Christ had come and then became an angel of repentance. Mystical? Oh, by all means. Believable? I don't know.

But all I know is in this day and age, if old Danny here comes into church and he says, I've got some revelations in the book and I saw a woman and she told me these things and these are the things that she, commandments she gave and these are the similitudes that she has. You know what the Orthodox Calvinists would do if they knew about it? I am not giving validation to it. I am not denying it. I am opening up for question for you to consider what does this mean.

Do you accept revelations? And remember in this forum, you can speak and hold your hand up and ask questions with our live audience, or if you have something at home, please do. But do you accept the revelations given to Hermas through an elderly woman representing this progress or digression, first digression, then progress through the church? And what would you say if someone had these revelations or visions today? You know, we have people like Joseph Smith.

And I'm bringing this up because this is right in our bailiwick of discussion. And then what are the dangers of trusting extra-biblical visions, revelations? And what are the benefits? I don't know. Hermas repents of unchaste thoughts regarding his former owner, Rode, and he sees the church transformation from an aged, weak woman to a youthful bride.

He is shown a great tower being built by... upon water by angels which symbolizes the church with various types of stones representing various types of believers and sinners he encounters a terrifying hundred foot long beast representing the coming tribulation have you ever had a tribulation into the world dream you know, where God comes and you're in it.

Interesting, right? And then he has some other visions. Then the 12 mandates outline core moral ethical duties of the Christian life. One and two, believe in one God and practice simplicity and innocence without slander. That's the first commandment that the shepherd of Hermas angel gives to him to write.

And then love truth, avoid falsehood, and maintain marital sexual purity with instructions concerning repentance after sinning. And then five and six, practice patience and recognize two distinct angels or spirits, one of righteousness, one of iniquity, guiding human choices. Two different distinct angels or spirits.

Today, I didn't know any of this. Today, I certainly believe that there's a spirit of man, which Paul talks about, and there's the spirit of Christ. Two distinct spirits. All the way back then, the shepherd of Hermas is talking about that. Fearing God, shunning evil, and praying with resolute, unwavering faith is the next one.

And then the final commandment is overcoming sadness, grief, testing true prophets from false ones, and subduing wicked or double-minded desires. A lot about it is to conform the self into the teachings or ways that Christ described. And then the ten similitudes are allegories that he uses to teach different things through allegorical representations.

And so that is The Shepherd of Hermas, the book he wrote. And now today, here we are. You don't see that book around mostly on Christian bookshelves. It's faded from significance. Was it ever significant? Was God behind his visions or was it the devil? Because that's usually what we hear that any kind of extra biblical experience is of the devil.

Remember, there's two groups of people relative to spiritual experience in the body of Christ or in the church in believers today. There are the continuationists. And there are the secessionists. The continuationists say that there are spiritual dreams, visions, things going on for people and revelations.

And last week I talked about how I said I had a small little revelation of God telling me to ride my bike and he would build and how the local... Orthodox Presbyterian pastor in the church mocked me on the air for saying that, for receiving some kind of revelation from God, that that's not possible in this day and age where we have the Bible.

Is that true? And are you a cessationist where you think all spiritual gifts are dead? Because there's a huge segment in the Christian church that won't accept any kind of spiritual experience. In short order, we're going to have a man come and join us who is a modern day mystic. We're going to let him tell his story.

I think you'll be impressed by what he has to say. And we're going to learn about him and you get to decide. What do you think? Now, I am never, ever suggesting anyone follow a man or a woman. Never. I say you follow God. You follow the spirit of God. directly, you to him. That's it.

And so I don't think what a mystic says should really carry weight, no matter who says it in your particular life, unless the spirit moves you to somehow learn from it. But that's that. So what are the dangers of these things? And what are the benefits? You tell me. But the bottom line, and I'll say this, that I believe, is that if you study the real McCoy, the scripture, established over the whole age of Israel, and you learn to identify the insights and writing of men inspired by God, and you can see that true currency clearly, the more you do that, the more when you come into something that's a counterfeit,

you're able to detect it really quickly. They tell that story that the way they catch counterfeiters is to study the real dollar bill, not the counterfeit ones. And then they can see the counterfeit ones really. And I think there's something to that when it comes to understanding the scripture, that it is valuable.

It was to them then, and the spirit can move you to understand it in ways and protect you. really protect you from the deceptions that are out there in the body of believers, outside of it, in writings, etc., etc. Okay.

Any comments or questions from the in-house crowd while I drink some of my blood soda? Did you have a question? No. All right. Next one. You've heard of this name. Origin of Alexandria. Now, Origen is considered the first major Christian mystic, right? And he laid the foundation for mystical theology used and understand through allegory, okay? Now, allegory is when you see hidden meaning in the Bible, in the scripture.

We have two general camps when it comes to scriptural interpretation. We have people who say it's absolutely literal. Every word of it is literal and applicable, and it means what it says, and it says what it means. The Bible says it, I believe it, and that's it. You hear that? Absolutely literal. There are great problems with absolute literalism with the scripture.

And if we did a show on it or did a sermon on it, we could talk about it. Because once you go down that road, you are bound to see it only in literal terms, and you will get yourself into a cul-de-sac of problems you can't believe. But then there are people, like Origen, who saw it truly allegorical, spiritual.

So, someone like him might say, well, the Adam and Eve story is allegory. You know, there's no way that there was really a man who had a woman pulled from his side and there was a talking serpent. These things are allegories to teach us. And on the spectrum of absolute literalism and absolute allegory, you have to decide where you're at and when you read the text.

Now, I would suggest that sometimes there's allegory and sometimes there's literal, and it's the Spirit of God that will direct you to understand it. I also think that for some people, according to their spiritual maturity level, they're going to see things as everything literal, let's say.

I don't know if that's the baseline for spiritual maturity beginning, but you just see everything as literal. And then you start to develop spiritual eyes where you can see and discern the scripture more allegorical or spiritual. Concepts that flow forth that have more meaning in a spiritual depth to you than just a literal application to you in your life. But Origen, he merged the Christian faith with Greek philosophy.

Especially with Plato. So from origin, we get what is a standard mindset in the faith today. And that is... Essence precedes existence. And we've talked about that in our Sunday school. You know what that means, don't you? That the essence of the law of God, the essence of right and wrong, good and evil, black and white, the essence always precedes your personal experience, your existence.

God said this, that means you comply to it. There is no experience coming before essence. God's way, this is Plato in his forms, he talked about this philosophically, that there are forms, just imagine triangles and squares and orbs, I'm just going to use that, in the ether of the cosmos that God created.

They are set in established forms. They are his law. And by that, everything finds its meaning. And so what Origen did was he said, OK, I'm going to merge Plato's thinking, which came well before the New Testament, into with Christian thinking. And we got the Hellenization of Christian thought. So we can see how the Greeks influenced the way the Jews were thinking.

The other side, which I happen to believe, is that existence precedes essence. That's called existentialism. The founder of that was a Christian named Kierkegaard, Soren Kierkegaard. And what he said was, I know God has laws, his essences, but I cannot, as an individual human with all my failures and my understanding of things, follow them perfectly.

I can only understand the Bible literally. That's my existence. I don't have the capacity as a man, the intelligence, the emotion, the training to understand it metaphysically. And so my existence is going to determine the way I understand God's essences. And it's a flip of the script in the way we think.

Well, today, mostly Christian. fundamentalist Christians say, no, no, no. Essence precedes existence. It doesn't matter if you're this. It doesn't matter if you're that. It doesn't matter what you are. He is the law. It is set in stone in the forms above us. Take it. And that is what origin contributed to.

The Hellenization of Christian thought. Coming from Kierkegaard is a guy named Levi Shestov. And he said, let me just put it to you this way. You are either Athens, precedes Jerusalem or you are Jerusalem precedes Athens meaning you either believe God all things are possible and you forget your logic and these are two roads that the mystics go down One says you cannot ever with your mind know God.

Forget about it. You won't know the forms. You won't know anything. It's going to be very difficult for you. So therefore, it's going to be existence before essence. Or you will go down the road and you will say, I know him to be this. This is his law. This is his rule. You must conform to it. So we're breaking open into these philosophical approaches to the scripture as we study the mystics.

Origin, what do you think? Ask yourself about the allegory of Scripture. Do you think that there are times when things are allegory? And do you think that there are times when they are literal? And do you agree that spiritual maturity allows you to see the difference? I am both minded. I believe some things were literal.

I believe the Garden of Eden story was literal. I actually do. Yeah, I think the flood was literal. I don't have any problem with it. I don't think it was worldwide the way they say. I think it was a geographical boundary. But nevertheless, I see it as literal. And then we have people who say it's worldwide, and we say that it was allegorical.

How do we get along in these different views as believers? It's through mercy and love. It's allowing people to see things wherever they are instead of dogmatically demand that they see it in a certain way, like we've done for 2,000 years and has ruined the faith, in my estimation, today. So allegory, can you see how...

It depends on the individual and how they see. I had James White, the biblical scholar, tell me I'm a walking contradiction. And I agreed. That's because when you see things allegorically, you don't have cross every T and dot every I. Not all four legs stand on the ground of your presuppositional thoughts.

They contradict themselves. And you'll see that is a great part of the mystical mindset, that there's not this absolute we-know way. There is an experiential way that each individual can have themselves. And then what does strict literalism do? and what problems does it cause i want to read a couple passages to you from the scripture to help you understand what the writers of the texts say paul said in 2nd corinthians 3 16 he has made us talking about the apostles competent as ministers of a new covenant not

of the letter but of the spirit For the letter kills, but the spirit gives life. That's a thumbs up to spiritual leanings instead of letter of the law. That is spirit versus form, you see. And in Galatians 4, 22, 26, he says, for it is written that Abraham had two sons. Now, let me show you. This is Paul allegorizing the scripture.

He says, Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman, the other by the free woman. These things are an... Allegory. These women are two covenants. So even Paul used the actual literal lives of Hagar and Sarai and Abraham and their children. He used that as an allegory to teach. There are some who just, oh, no, no, no, you can't do that.

It's funny. You go to 1 Corinthians 2, 13, 14. This is what we speak, Paul says, not in words taught us by human wisdom, but in words taught by the Spirit. Explaining spiritual realities with spiritual taught words. The person without the spirit does not accept the things that come from the spirit of God because they are discerned only through the spirit.

When that is allowed in the world of believers, then calling someone a walking contradiction is probably a compliment. Because in this world, in the world of Greek linear thinking scholars who look at the words and use it for argumentation, they have a perspective that they can hold to because they can argue it chapter and verse like lawyers in a courtroom.

But when you bring the spirit of God in, which is different from the spirit of this world, and you start talking about those things, guess what the result is? You are misunderstood. And you're called a heretic and you're called demented and all the other things. Romans 7, 6, but now by dying to what once bound us, Paul says, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, whose fruit is love, peace, joy, long-suffering, all those fruits of the Spirit, you see.

So it's not the letter of the law. It is the fruit of the Spirit, in my estimation, and according to what Paul says. And he adds, and not in the old way of the written code. You see, written code, I believe, is for the juveniles in the faith. They haven't grown in the spirit. They don't know how to interpret it metaphysically.

They don't know how to understand it through the spirit of God. So they chapter and verse you to death. Is it allowable? Of course, because you have to start with the milk before you can go to the meat. My question or my criticism is we need to let the meat eaters speak. We need to let them live as much as we let the milk drinkers say it's this way and it's only this way.

There has to be love and union between both sides. The mystics help bring this about in our world. Ephesians 5, listen to this. If you want an allegory, you tell me if this is allegory or if this is literal. That they may be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth and the length and the depth and the height.

To know the love of Christ which passes knowledge. Boom. Passes knowledge. The love of Christ, that's a spiritual metaphysical experience that we should be having and speaking of in the faith today with each other, encouraging each other and not saying that's of the devil. You know, you got to be careful and all that.

Let people who believe have their way. And he says that you might be filled with all the fullness of God. Now, how can you explain being filled with the fullness of God? Is this not conceptual and even allegorical in spirit? So Origen is received today with a mix of profound appreciation and dogmatic caution.

I mean, there's, you know, we always do it. He's separated out his own Origen. No, no, no. You know, they don't realize that the patristic fathers, they all had no, no, no stuff about them too. But while he is universally recognized as one of the most brilliant. Absolutely brilliant influential theologians in the early church.

He's just not recognized as a canonized saint in Roman Catholicism, Orthodoxy, or Protestantism. Why? The institution said too far out. Too much of this theorizing. No way. We have to have what we call the standard of the truth, the canon that's written. We have to be law keepers. Therefore, we have to rid ourselves of people who throw curveballs into the ring and make people think outside by the spirit that they're given. And so those people become the mystics.

They wander about and they follow God in the way that they know. And they are completely alienated, ostracized, sometimes put to death, excommunicated from the powers that be that corporatize the faith. This is what we have been speaking against for years. It's what we lack in the faith today. And we can see, in my opinion, the result of corporatizing and codifying the scripture into rules and laws.

We see the church is empty. We see them emptying. And we see people saying it doesn't make sense anymore. And so there's some things we can do. So mystics are often, we will see, at odds with institutional religions. We suggest Origen was one of the first post-return, post-return of Christ for his bride mystics.

He was an after Christ took his bride mystic. He was opened up to different ideas and he stepped from the regimens of men and he said, you know, we need to think more independently. You can accept him. You can reject him. Up to you. Some of his teachings include, and you are going to see a couple that are wrong and I'm wrap up origin.

You ready? The soul's life is in a spiritual battle. He taught that the soul must climb a spiritual ladder. Now, the procession of growing in faith is mentioned by most of the mystics. Climbing ladders is huge with them. going step by step by step by step and progressing until you get to greater light and knowledge.

This was systematized by Joseph Smith in the Mormon temple through Freemasonry, but the mystics were talking a lot about these processional things. A few years ago, we developed something called the four L's and the four traits. It's similar in its tenor to being a step formula, not a formula, but a system to see how to grow in the faith.

And we listed how those things were very mystic like all borrowed from Scripture but that's what it was he also believed the Bible has three levels of understanding I think this is pretty ingenious the physical the literal level he called it the moral mind will emotions soul level of the Bible and the spiritual the divine level of the Bible And so we can see that reading, it has application to everybody, no matter where they are in their life.

I love that. And then we, to him, a mystic is someone who uncovers the deepest spiritual meanings from the text rather than the first literal ones or the soulish ones. He read the Song of Psalms, the Song of Solomon. as it was an allegory of the soul's intimate personal relationship with God, of our marriage to God.

That's how he saw it. And he wrote extensively about the mystical absence of God. And that is something that is really prevalent among many mystics, that they talk about him in what are called apophatic terms. And we'll discuss that in the future if we haven't already. The mystics talk about the absolute anguish and pain of feeling God's absence.

Even though you believe in him, you've walked with him, he's talked with you, and then you enter into this absence period. Have you ever done that? I have. It's darker than dark. Not fun. Why does God do that? He said he'd always be with us. Is he? Are we pulling from him? What can we learn? Origin proved that a person could use logic and study to seek a direct personal experience with the divine.

Do you believe that you can experience a direct personal experience with the divine? I do. I did in 97. Before that, it was all religion. And then I went back into religion through Calvary Chapel and practiced it and realizing they don't really offer anything that I can't have myself with the divine. That's what Christian subjectivism is all about.

that you as an individual, the veil was torn down, have the right to go and seek God in spirit and truth, and he will answer you without the intervention of popes and priests and bishops and Catholics, not Catholics, popes and priests and bishops and prophets and all those intermediaries who are telling you, follow me, follow me. Third century, there's two and we'll wrap it up.

Gregory Thamaturgus. He's the first. These Greek names kill me. He's deeply tied to Christian mysticism. He's the most famous third century bishop and missionary. So he was part of the early Catholic formation. And his life and his legacy encompass several core elements of mysticism. And his connection to mysticism rests on the following points.

One. Direct, divine visions. Visions. Okay? Now, that opens us up. Do you think visions happen today? I've never had one, a vision. I did see a dead lady when I was three or four. That wasn't a vision. I saw her. But I've never seen God. I've never seen Christ. That's not something to tell you the truth I want.

In fact, I've told my father, I don't want to see you if it means I'm walking by less faith because I know it's only faith that pleases you. So I don't want a vision with one exception. And that doesn't need to be discussed. I haven't had them though. But do you believe they're possible? Some do. And some claim to have them constantly.

You know, I got a friend, he lives out in the desert. He says he sees the devils all the time. Because they live out there. And he's a fascinating little character, you know. In Eastern Orthodoxy, people have visions of the Virgin Mary all the time. And these mystics did too. So did the Catholics. And the Apostle John appeared to this Thamergius guy in a dream.

Do you think that the apostles can come back and visit you? If you do, then you're going to have a problem when you start to look at Smith. I'm not saying Smith was right. I'm just saying, you know, if we're going to play fair on the field of what we accept and what we don't, we have to look at all of it.

And then here's the interesting thing. In many of the early mystics, all the way up through the 11th century, They all had visions of the Trinity. The Trinity, all over the place. The interesting thing is, we have to ask, and you have to ask yourself, are our visions given to us by what we're taught? In other words, do we see what we've been taught to believe? The reason I ask that is because you'll see...

The people who have been taught that Mary, the mother of Christ, the Virgin Mary that you pray to, they will see her in visions. But they're only of the Catholic and Orthodox tradition. The Protestants don't see Mary. So how does that play in our interaction with God? Does he use what we've been taught? I've done in the past, I don't look at them anymore because I think that they're all of the human experience, but near-death experiences that people have.

It's fascinating when you see that the Hindus have a Hindu near-death experience. The Muslims have a Muslim near-death experience. The Mormons have a Mormon one. And the Mormons are fascinated. They just all see their family in a great place. Well, that's what they're taught, you know? So, and then other people say, I see Jesus.

I don't know how much cretins give to NDEs, but I know this. They almost always correlate, unless there's some exceptional revelation to the person, to what they've been taught. Perhaps the visions and revelations people have as mystics do the same. We have to ask that and we have to use that as a qualifier when we try to vet what's being done.

And so is mysticism a subjective reflection not to be followed, but just considered? And it's going to probably bother some of you as we get into a few of them. We did this book. It's available to you online. But it has like 400 plus of the mystics from the first century to the present day. And I'm going to just truncate most of them down and exclude some of them because they're repetitive.

But it's really interesting how much is subjective, individual, non-religious. And how much then, though, incorporates what the religion of the day and what the people of an area believed. So you'll see the mystics of Italy, for instance, all have a similar experience. And then the ones that are from the British Isles.

And so we have to say, how much of that is the spirit of man? How much of it is the spirit of God? What's at play here when you have a vision or an inspiration? You have to ask ourselves, what's the origin of those insights? And several options come to mind. One, they're God revealing truth. That's the first one people say.

God came to me in a dream. Jesus came to me. I saw him. And they claim that, you know. And then two, that they are misleading forces from the dark that are obstacles to the truth. We got to consider, is it that? And then they are the product of an individual's presuppositional ideas forged on the anvil of religion.

That a Trinitarian was taught the Trinity, they see the Trinity. A Benitarian sees two. A Unitarian sees one. You know, all that comes in. And are they specifically catered to the individual accordingly to what they need to see? Another factor we have to say, that if someone says, I saw this and this, and it doesn't accord with your beliefs, was it something God uses in their library of beliefs to help them at where they are in their understanding and maturity? A lot of stuff to think about, isn't it?

But if you don't, you can be misled and you will fail to test all things and hold fast to what is true. His writings from his famous panegyric to origin uses mystical language. He frequently describes the soul's intimate union with God and deep hidden mysteries of divine wisdom. Do you believe you can have an intimate, direct...

relationship with God that transcends knowledge. Prior to my conversion experience of a few months ago, I thought, well, it's possible. I've experienced it now, so I would say absolutely. And it changes something in you. We'll talk about what I see as having led to that experience for whatever it's worth.

Always have to keep it on that. And like many early Christian mystics, this guy withdrew from the secular world. And this happens with almost all of them. The moment they have a mystical experience with God, they depart from the secular world. And I can attest to that happening naturally. naturally happens once it's happened.

And so I think the mystics are right. So I've personally worked through these things and tested them in a number of ways. I've religiously fasted. You know what that was? Hell. When is it gonna be time to eat? I've religiously prayed while I'm falling asleep mid-thought. I've religiously done it all through being Mormon and being at Calvary Chapel and trying to follow what men say you need to do.

I've done it religiously. Forget about it. Dropped it all. Pursued God in spirit and truth. And after convergence, I experienced the difference between demanded practices that are religious and free flowing influences of the spirit in your life, which liberate you beyond compare. Historians view him as a wonder worker.

That's what the guy's last name means in Greek. Thamaturges means those who do wonderful gifts and wonders. And this leaned heavily on what these guys are called, the Cappadocian fathers. We're going to get to them in the next few weeks, the Cappadocian fathers. But it really influenced what's called monasticism.

And I just want to say now, before we go into our last study of some mystics, I have a problem with monasticism. And here's why. It's my personal opinion. I understand tenets of it. But monasticism is when you pull back and you yourself become the end all of everything God does. You go into a monastery. You pray and fast. You do all these things.

And it doesn't really extend outside the walls of the monastery. And most of the mystics will fall into this form of monasticism. I have a bit of an issue with it because I find it to be selfish and egocentric. And it defies the practice of agape love, which is extended only when we engage with people who bother us.

And I had a firsthand experience with that just recently with Delaney. And let me explain it to you and we'll get close to wrapping it up. Before COVID hit, I worked every day, probably, I don't know how many years, since the 80s. If I wasn't working a job, I would work in public places. Have my laptop, it would be somewhere public, a fast food place, a supermarket, somewhere working in public.

And I would write and I'd think and I'd observe people. And when people would talk, I would engage with them. I would read them. I would try to find out about them. Always a huge experience with public interaction pre-COVID. I'm sitting in Smith's downtown when they dropped the bomb that it's lockdown. They came in. They said, you are out of here.

And they put all the chairs on the tables and the place cleared out. And I said, what are you talking about? I'm out of here. They said, you're gone. So from the time that hit, I went into monastic living right here in this building. I didn't go out.

I didn't work in public places from the time COVID hit March 22, all the way up till just recently, I went back to Starbucks. Just recently, I went back to public working. But in that time, I monastically worked and I was having experiences. I was having all kinds of insights. It was amazing. I thought I was overcoming my flesh. I thought God in me had raised me up to a new level.

And that monastic experience really was changing me. Then we had some things come up and we had to take 90 days off. That was a complete monastic experience because we didn't even have connection with people here. I would call people who gather with us and talk to them, make sure everyone's okay. But I didn't really see many people at all during that time, except just a couple, right? So I am fully pulled back again.

Then we go out as Sean the Baptist to Cache Valley. And I'm removed from the monastic experience. I'm now confronted with the public and all my elevated thoughts of having overcome things. That I hadn't overcome anything. And I really thought that I was a fraud. I thought that I was a phony. And Delaney was the one who pointed it out.

You've just been hidden away for so long. And you just had all the things that you believe put to the test. And you could see you never really overcome when you're in your flesh. We never really reach a level of being human. You just don't. And it's like what Martin Luther said. He said, if you think you have arrived when you hang out with your friends who believe like you, go hang out with someone who irritates you.

And then you see how much your religion really has seeped into your soul in person. So monasticism is another thing we need to talk about as we go through the mystics and see the value of it. Is there good things about going away into the wilderness and praying and thinking? I think absolutely. And that's why our Lord did it.

But I'll tell you something. Don't ever think that you're going to, while you're alive, transcend this flesh. I don't think it is humanly possible. It was only possible to our Lord, which is why he's our Lord, Savior, and King. And we aren't. Wrapping up the first, second, third centuries, we come to a guy named Anthony the Great.

And Anthony the Great is considered a Christian mystic. He's known as the father of all monks. And he started the tradition, ready? Talk about monasticism, of hermits living alone in the desert to pray. He's the father of men and women called the desert fathers. Now that's a huge group, these desert fathers and then later desert mothers.

And so, you know, isolation, what does it do to us as humans? We remember the... The isolation tanks of the 1960s. A guy named Paddy Chafieski wrote a book called Altered States and they made a movie of it. And about going into these tanks where you just lay in water and the water is the same temperature as your body and you cut out all light and sound and you experience, you know, these things.

What is that? Is that just your body and your human experience or is it God? So you got to be really careful when you start to assign yourself to these remote experiences. Anthony gave away all his money. He lived in the woods, in old tombs, in mountain caves to escape worldly distractions. Sometimes I'd like to do that.

Seems much easier than being involved. He had visions and battles. His biography by Saint Athanasius, a big Christian father, tells of his intense visions. Anthony reported having conversation with God and angels and fighting off physical attacks with demons. Physical attacks with demons. Is that possible? Do you believe it? Is he insane? Don't know.

Prayer to Anthony is a conviction that brings deep, quiet connection to God. I think that's true, especially when it's not religiously imputed. We're going to proceed next week with either a special guest or with the fourth century covering 10 unique mystics and what they bring to the table, good and bad, to help us understand where the faith has been.

What can we learn from it? Whether it be cautionary tale or something that will benefit us as believers in Christ. Questions, comments? Nothing online. Anybody from here? Danny, go ahead. Explain how someone has a vision of the Trinity. I'm trying to figure out. They're emblematic like John. They're representational of symbols and animals and signs.

They say it's the Trinity, but it's those things interpreted as representing the Trinity. I don't know if any of them say they actually see the Trinity, because I haven't read everything, but we'll see. It's interesting that when you're talking about COVID and how people were, the church is locked down, people were supposed to do their studies at home, and that's referring basically to Mormonism.

And then so many didn't come back because they really liked that. Yeah, and a lot of churches. That's kind of when the churches started to shift. They've been struggling ever since. I just saw a church here in town. They're really recovering, though, because they had a big car show. Okay. That'll do it. That'll bring them back.

You know, Joseph Smith claimed to have, they say, up to 56. visions where people from the old testament new testament came and appeared to him to bring revelation and information wow so he was really caught up in having these experiences or pretending to have them and whatever it is whatever happened to him shut right down when the next prophet came along behind him right because they really haven't received yeah besides joseph i think it was f smith that had the vision about the the life hereafter.

Fascinating, isn't it? It's gone into a drought. Yeah. If you have the reference to that, 56 or whatever, could you send it to me? Yeah. Thanks. Anybody else? Yes, my sister. I've had three visions. You have? Yeah. Do you share them with people? Yeah, I have shared them, yeah. You have.

And do you believe they were real? Oh, they were real. How do you know they were real? Because I saw the results of the visions. I saw for real. It's weird. But yeah, I saw my vision, my vision. I believe you. I mean, how can I, who am I to doubt you? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Well, praise God. I think, I don't believe in secessionism. Were you high on anything? No, no, no, absolutely not.

All right. That's the whole thing. It was back when, a long time ago, and I didn't even know Christ at the time. Wow. I had visions. Wow. Of my kids. Wow. Like pre, pre? yeah three wow yeah i've heard mothers talk about that sometimes wow and then i've seen it go on with my life i'm like wow that was really coming wow my mom had a vision she had a donkey and it came true anything else anything else you guys love you guys so much let's pray and uh Look to him. Look to him.

That's it. You know, we study this, but look to him. Father, we are grateful that there's a him, a manifestation of you in flesh that we do look to as our father and that you... Sent him to overcome what we could not. And we look to him as the author and finisher of our faith. The only source. The way, the truth, and the life.

Help us to grow closer to him in spirit and truth. To you and to others in his name. As we surrender our will and ways over to yours. And we learn to love better as we walk through this life. Bless those who are struggling. And that's all of us. with whatever it is because we all face our flesh beating us up testing us challenging us you allow it there's purpose help us to understand what those purposes are we pray that you will bless the events unfolding in the state and that we i pray that the lds empire will hear the message

And that they will humbly submit to your spirit alone. And that things will continue to roll forth. Everybody who's involved with whatever they do according to your will, Lord, bless them. And we pray for this now in Yeshua's name. Amen.