HOLY LUST: Mormonism Explained

HOLY LUST: Mormonism Explained | Heart of the Matter EPIPHANY

Transcripts:

Welcome to Heart of the Heart We're remote, if you can't tell that we're on zoom right now so hey dad how's it going hey del she's traveling with her little baby showing her off to the world yes thanks everyone

for the patience we hope the uh background might not disorient you as much as a hotel background so okay today we're talking about holy lust in the lds church as part of the seventh series of heart of the matter which is called epiphany uh if you haven't watched it i encourage you to go back and watch this series i think uh sean's brought out so much really valuable perspective on what the Mormon church actually is and how we can work on it as yeshuans instead of all the other ways that people try to work on

the LDS church. Don't you think? Yeah. Okay. So Heart of the Matter, Epiphany holy lust so do you want to get it started yeah uh delaney and i were just talking and getting ready uh for this you know she did say something important just now she said that we're bringing some unique ways to understand mormonism the standard ways are all over the internet we get it it. We're not even an internet ministry.

We are a content provider that shows some stuff on the internet. But if you want to know, Delaney came up with the through line of scripture, which I've readily embraced because it is so important. And the through line of scripture from God creating man to revelation is faith. It's always been about faith. And so that's why in Hebrews 11.

6, it says, without faith, it's impossible to please him. It's impossible to please him. Now, that's what the Bible says, but we have a religion started by Joseph Smith Jr. who revamped the whole beginning model in the Garden of Eden, and he said, no, in order for men and women to grow, they had to embrace knowledge.

And so they say Eve eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, God was pleased with that. He wanted them to do that. And there is all kinds of quotes, you know, when you look at their church leadership, you know, when you look at their church leadership that, like, he, Adam, had knowledge, of course.

He could speak. He could converse. There were many things he could be taught and was taught, but under the conditions in which he was living at the time, it was impossible for him to visualize or understand the power of good and evil. He did not know what pain was. He did not know what sorrow was.

And a thousand other things that have come to us in this life that Adam did not know in the Garden of Eden and could not understand and would not have known had he remained there. That's from Doctrines of Salvation from Joseph Fielding Smith. The problem with that, it's a completely humanist view. And God wanted them to trust him.

They could have grown and matured under his tutelage. He could have told them how to construct bridges. He could have, and how to have children and all the things the Mormons say Adam and Eve could never have found out. He walked with them in the cool of the day. He was there to answer their questions. He gave them free will. And it is just such a con to say that it was a good thing and a follow-up word.

And I'm not going to even read all the quotes where they endorse that. So anything so far, Del, I'm talking a lot. No, well, maybe just a few things. Like, it's obvious to state, but if you haven't watched in the past, we really pit faith and knowledge against one another, right? Is that like an assumed, I don't think everyone assumes that those are opposites for some reason.

It's a tough one because it's the kind of knowledge we're talking about. If it's knowledge of God, it's life eternal. But we still don't know. It's when humans think that they have knowledge where they know things and humans are God now. That's the problem with human knowledge. Okay. So yeah, like what, how would you define faith then in this sense? I would define faith as taking evidences of things you think support a belief and using those evidence to say, I don't know this, but it makes sense to me that this is the

truth. Okay. evidence to say i don't know this but it makes sense to me that this is the truth okay and you you'll also so so um it's related to the fall because there's these two trees and eve eats of the one tree which is the knowledge of good and evil and smith is saying that that was a good thing that we wouldn't know how to live in this world if she hadn't done that.

And you kind of posit that eating of the tree of life is what faith is. Yeah. Is that correct? Yeah, because God said, here's this tree, eat of it or eat of the other one and die. And they could say, well, we didn't know what die means or something like that, but they could have asked him.

The whole point is they resorted to their own wisdom and their own intelligence to do what they were going to do, which is foundational for Mormons. They resort to their own ways instead of looking to god and his ways to do things okay so so i have a few more questions about the mormons then like it makes a lot of sense looking at that religion now that that's what they think about the fall because it's like if the knowledge was needed for them to live in this if that's if that was a good thing then the way their religion's built is the best religion on earth like it like they've built it

based on this premise that it's good to partake of knowledge before surrendering your knowledge to god more like it's that's just fundamental so but what is it in um is it like implicit because i don't know if mormons would like readily understand that that's what they think or that's they understand it because the overall teachings orbit around that without them always hitting it on the head for For instance, we're here to be tried.

Without pain, we would never know pleasure. Without opposition, we would never know good. It's part of their general plan of salvation that they teach everybody. And so what they're saying is we have the knowledge of what makes us and everything good. We have that knowledge given to us by Joseph Smith and other prophets after him. We have the knowledge of how to be good.

And that's why they teach what they teach is good. And then they also have the knowledge of how not to be evil. Yeah. Yeah. Cause they draw a big line between those two. Yeah. And so, so you're refuting this with the Bible. Like you're, it's not just a refutation of that in general, but it's using the Bible to show faith is essential. Yeah.

Yeah. What do they do with their doctrine to obscure that? Or what do they do with faith? What do they say about faith? Well, they'll say you walk in faith because we don't know things, but we have the knowledge of how to walk in that faith, temple rites, rituals, commandments, laws. And if you do our knowledge, then your faith will be sustained and you'll live a good life you'll be rewarded here i see and it's a different message than what the christian message was what you know just look at what yeshua said you know blessed are those that uh

mourn yeah you know all very tough they have a system for living good lives here on earth and it's all based in human knowledge and it's anathema to what god wanted okay so that said you have a a graphic a chart that before we get to that let's talk about how so eve was told by her husband not to eat of that tree we assume that because god didn't tell eve he told him from the narrative he only told him okay so she appears to have been frustrated or tempted or something but before she fell and disobeyed God, the Mormons

call it a transgression, the Christians call it a sin, but before she did that, she made the decision she was going to do it. And we have a scripture that tells us what led her to make that decision. And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, very practical, it's good for food. Okay. And that it was pleasant to her eyes. It pleased her. It was enticing.

It was something that looked beautiful and that it was a tree to be desired to make one wise. She wanted to be wise in the shortcut. She wanted to eat of a fruit and not rely on God to tell her how to be wise in life. So it's a straight contradiction of what he wanted for human beings. And it says that she took the fruit and did eat and gave it to her husband with her and he did eat.

So those three things that tempted Eve to disobey God and go about her own way and create her own knowledge system are those. Okay. So then when we go to the New Testament, the apostolic record, John says in 1 John 2, 15 through 17, listen to what he says compared to what caused Eve to eat of that fruit. Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

For all that is in the world, and then John describes what's in the world, and he says the lust of the flesh. So that was the first thing that caused Eve to want to eat the tree, the fruit, because it was good for food, the lust of the flesh. Then the lust of the eyes, John says, and the thing that made her want to eat of it was it was pleasant to her eyes.

These are the lusts of the world that draw us after our own way and will. And he says, and the pride of life. She saw that the fruit would make her wise that's pride she could eat it and have knowledge in the shortcut and be be like god like satan said you'll be like the gods knowing good from evil and so uh john says it's not of the father but it's of this world and the world passes away in the lust thereof but he that does the will of god abides forever what's the will of god to have faith so the mormon

setup is absolutely contrary to the biblical narrative of what god wants from human beings it's diabolical in that sense i I don't think the members know it. I think they think they live good lives. Yeah. I want to, there's a lot to ask, but does Joseph Smith or in any original text in the book of Mormon, does it, does it have any like comparative texts that say, that refer to like the flesh flesh the eyes and the pride of life explicitly or it's just that i know of okay not that i know of okay they talk about loss they talk about carnality

but they have ways of overcoming that instead of through faith for sure so So what is positive? You read the quote, but what is positive that makes it good? How exactly do they say it's good that Eve did that then? Because it creates in the end good teleological results for people who want to live good lives.

It makes this world work. And it teaches you how to overcome obstacles, how to choose the right when the choice is placed before you. They have the system, they have the covenants, they have the scripture, the teachings, they have it all. You follow it, and you will be pleasing to God having gone this alternative route it really is the most diabolical it's die a flocking bollock all like it makes it it's just so antithetical and yeah yeah faith that the path of faith especially in the garden and now the spiritual garden are to

not know what's right evil like to not know about good and evil and to walk as if you're just in the light and you might bump into evil things and it's going to be painful and hurt or something. But that's how you learn? I don't know. I think it's part of the proving ground. The thing that makes it so great with the Mormons, what they did is it's so close to the truth.

Yeah. You know, but it is just enough to be opposite of what God said. It's like the, the whole point of life is that it's a proving ground and they have a cheat code and they're so happy. They are like happy that they have a cheat code. Yeah. They don't understand that that cheat code, you don't learn, you actually fail the test.

Yeah. You have it. Yeah. Yeah. It's, and they don't learn you actually fail the test yeah you have it yeah yeah it's and they don't see how that's failing they don't realize that you please god by having faith in his promises not knowing what they're going to mean yeah the whole point of the proving ground is to not look at the cheat code yeah like it's to just not not know and try your best and yeah they literally in their doctrine and covenants joseph smith said he had god say i the lord am bound when you do

what i say when you do not what i say you have no promise so they believe that they can bind god by doing the things that they say he wants and he has to respond with blessings that is so disturbing yeah and let me give you one more before we move on that one of the best destroyers of their whole system is to, because in the Mormon temple, Satan shows up and God says, what are you doing here? And in the film, Satan says, I'm doing that, which has been done in other worlds. Okay. So Satan had the knowledge when he's tempting Eve,

Satan had the knowledge when he's tempting Eve, he had the knowledge of what it would lead to. So if Satan knew what it would lead to, and it would be God's plan for man, why would Satan tempt Eve to eat of that fruit and not do everything in his power to keep her from eating it so that she wouldn't install God's real plan in the earth.

Do you get it? They say Satan came and tempted knowing what it would lead to, but what they say it led to was good. Why would Satan do that if he knew it was going to lead to good for humankind and not do everything to get her to never eat of that tree and only eat of the tree of life so she could stay dumb forever in eternity in the garden like the mormons uh suggest it's a key destroyer of the whole thing so uh does do does joseph Joseph Smith or do any of the commenters that you have looked at have an alternative perspective on Satan then?

Like, do they think of him as like maybe even good somehow? What they say is that he thought what he was leading Eve to do was bad, but he didn't know that God was tricking him, even though he'd seen it done in other worlds before. And God let him tempt her so she would do it, and then she fell, and then God went.

they have an answer for everything yeah well that's the obstacles that have to be let through to make that work are wild so last week i think delaney and i or at least on the call-in show we were saying how you really have to be lds to to understand it to see what this is all about it's not just another church you know you really gotta look at it so uh having been lds i took what this is all about. It's not just another church. You really got to look at it.

So having been LDS, I took what this is all about, and Delaney, we have a graphic. I don't know when it's going to come up. And what it is, is it shows the result of this idea of the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life that the Mormons feel was essential and necessary for humankind to embrace.

And so I broke the local level ward and stake down into groups. And anybody who's been LDS will be able to readily see that you could pretty much break up a ward or a stake this way. Now, there's always exceptions. But first of all, you've got your look down in the lower right side. You've got your lower level heroes. Now, these are the guys and girls and the young men and young women.

The guy's got a thriving business. He might be an orthodontist or he might be a successful businessman and him with his wife and their beautiful little family. They've got the nice house in the ward. It's got the big backyard. They have all the fun and parties, the trampolines, the swimming swimming everybody in the ward gravitates toward them on the local level uh they take the big vacations they play basketball and softball they're the king and queen of the local ward and um big fish in small ponds what they represent is Eve being attracted to the fruit because it was good for food.

They love the good for food of the gospel. It just makes their life great. And everybody buys into it and the warden's steak. And these echelons go up at the local level. And we all know the families that meet up to the local level heroes for some reason they don't move up into higher rank usually stake presidents and stuff they like their money and their travel and their fun too much sometimes they do if they have enough but bottom line they are allowed to thrive in the lust of that life, of having it all, lust of the flesh,

and they cut their teeth on it. So that's one. And the next one, if you look up in the left top, is fame lust. And there is a love for fame, a lust for fame among the LDS. If they can find out that somebody's converted, who's famous, they go nuts. They, they, they worship people who are famous, most of them.

And, you know, they have their cultural halls and they have their dance festivals and they have their music festivals and, you know, people are singing in church. They have their sports festivals and they have their music festivals and you know people are singing in church they have their sports their basketball their volleyball softball uh fame of any kind at any level a really good basketball player on out to somebody who's hit it on america's got talent mormons love their fame and that's the lust of the eyes. That is this. Yeah.

Oh, I was just going to say there, it seems like they're willing to sacrifice some of their principles to be associated with these lusts. Absolutely. They do. Secret lives of Mormon wives is fine because it's getting the Mormon name out there. That's right. Yeah. And they'll say that's their mission. Yeah. You know, they use anything. They don't care.

They don't care. As long as you don't speak badly about the church and you make it look good. Yeah, for sure. So these are the lust areas. And then you get to the pride of life, the third thing that caused Eve to eat of it. Now, this is the high-end stuff. These are the guys who are big attorneys. They're educated.

They have the best jobs. They have a lot of money. They have reputation. They like walk on water. They're not down with the young men too often. They don't touch that stuff they touch leadership political presence uh status in the church and their their position what is your husband he's a stake president when you start getting into that you start moving up into the pride of life lust of the Mormons. And they love that junk, man. And they hold these people way up above.

They talk about those in the pride of life category like they're gods, like the brethren. And did you know that elder blank, blank, blank, they always use their middle initial as coming to visit. And these are the brethren. They talk about them in this, the brethren would be, I remember we did a road show years ago and someone came up and said the brethren would be so proud of this. I was just like, shut up, you sicko.

When the brethren walk in a room, all the members stand. And that is the other echelon is the pride of life. These apostles who have cut their teeth on service in the church live in multi-million dollar homes here in Utah. They have gated communities. They have never stepped outside. They are the pride of life. And they're the worst form of a Mormon because in their heart, they are so arrogantly proud of what they have done with it.

Now, any comments on any of that, Del? You can keep going. I'll make comments after. So the one category I didn't start with, and these are everybody who they don't have position. They're usually too overweight. They don't have enough money. They aren't attractive maybe not formally educated they don't have any singing or song talents these i call the local venerable and they get their lust uh quotient filled because they put on being a spiritual giant. Brother, so-and-so, what do you think this means? Well, I've done a lot.

They are so humble. They're humble servants of pride in all that they teach seminary. They have food storage that they live. Every ward has one or two of these families. They toe the line. They're greatly respected, but no one really wants to be like them. They just have a place. And, you know, they're usually academicians. They're historians.

Their women are typically a little bit more liberal, a little more short, gray-haired, bobbed Latter-day Saint women and their intellectuals. It's a selfish lust. They lust for spiritual honor. They're like the Pharisees, but they're not usually mean. They just like to set in order every doctrinal thing. The difference between them and the lust for life guys is the lust for life guys say, I'm not really sure about that doctrinal position.

I don't really know. You might want to ask brother so-and-so about that. They defer to the venerable because their job is politics, money, and leadership. So you don't always have a pride of life lust in the venerable, and you don't always have the fame lust in the venerable or in the pride of life. They're kind of distinct four categories, and I know there's exceptions.

There's people who just go to church and all that, but this is the direct result of what they extol as happened in the Garden of Eden. You ate from the tree of knowledge. you can now have pride and lust for things as long as they're good you can do it it goes back to episodes we've done previously which are like it's good but not true and yeah because there's so many appeals like even just on clips we've had where we say like being smart doesn't get you into the kingdom of heaven like making points and and people will comment just

like okay so we just should be dumb then like they you know and our appeals to like this person has done so much for the world like they have to be of god and but then to put it in the uh in the lens of lust and the original issue is to it's a lust for things that are good like they're not bad things it's a lust for good things good for food yeah good for the x y and z like it is that not that they are bad and that's so hard about it it's like pride of ownership of a really nice house there's nothing wrong with pride of ownership so they take all the good

and they assign it to these things that normally god is like no yeah and it just goes to the like economy of god is something totally different it's not that it's wrong in this world but they assign it to god like that the the and the whole structure is about holiness and uh worth spiritual worth which is so backward yeah so and it's interesting too because i just read a quote from herman hess and he said not everything that's good is of god wow i feel like i haven't read anyone else say something like that before.

Yeah. Not everything that's good is of God. Wow. Pretty profound. And I think that God appropriately named that tree, a tree of knowledge of good and evil. And so if you want to know Mormonism, they are the good side and they are a perfect church and they do all the good things and the only downfall to you being a member, actively believing participating is you're going to get proud yeah and you're going to lust for things of this world yeah and I think there are other forms of good too that they don't really recognize they don't they don't really particularly help

the poor you know if someone is really i don't know i don't't think in this matrix that you've made, it doesn't seem like they lift up people that are extremely sacrificial or, you know, there's other kinds of good that it doesn't seem like they recognize. So I'm not sure what that's about.

They seem to help others only when those others are willing to help themselves. When somebody is unable or unwilling to help themselves they don't give them the same attention as somebody who is uh trying to help themselves yeah and yeah so then like if yeshuans were to make a matrix like this it might almost be the opposite like the people who are not famous not successful not i it might be too far the other way but that seems like where god appeals wouldn't you say i would and i would put yeshua in that model and say where would he be what was his attitude yeah definitely yeah um

i'm going to pause the recording for a minute okay well i'm curious about the way that the mormons doctrinally bolster this and like i think you have a number of quotes that you've pulled from different texts so can we go through them yeah some of them at least you want to say some of the the bigger ones you know what i do dell is I prepare to get the general outline of everything that could possibly be needed, and I don't even read it.

So I don't know. I mean, we have all the scriptural references of how they explain it in their doctrinal outline, and then we jump down to quotes from them. quotes from them. And, you know, we have, I'm very, very grateful that in the Book of Mormon, and I think elsewhere in our scriptures, the fall of Adam has not been called a sin.

It wasn't a sin. The sin is missing the mark of God. God clearly said, don't eat of that tree. It was absolutely a sin. Now, did they have a knowledge that it was sinful? I don't know of that tree it was absolutely a sin now did they have a knowledge that it was sinful i don't know about that but it was definitely rebellious and they were punished for it what did adam do he says what did i yeah the very thing go ahead the very thing that the lord wanted him to do yes hate to hear anybody call it a sin for it wasn't a sin did adam sin when he partook of

the forbidden fruit i say to you no he did not wow so it's explicit it's definitely not like oh no it's it's dead on and it's a different it's a completely different gospel so when i see like there's some pastor up here who's like, I'm a pastor. I go to the Mormon meetings. The Mormons are great. They have no idea how bad this religion is compared to the truth.

To this world, it's great. That's an unbelievable quote. So that's from Moses 3.16. So it's from the book. It's from moses 3 16 so it's from the from the book from joseph smith he wrote the book of moses that is so scary okay we should go through the doctrinal outline conditions and just give some references conditions and in the garden of eden were different from those of mortality so before the fall the earth and all the things upon it existed in the spiritual state i don't i don't believe that was entirely true i

think he formed him from the dust of the ground breathed into him the breath of life and i think they were living creatures they spiritualize it and say no it was all spiritual and i don't think that's true like that they would die like the the implications they're saying that they lived in a spiritual state with god and they weren't really even in a in a material state until yeah until after the fall that's interesting because everything is so material for them otherwise yeah so and then adam and eve were in the presence of god in the garden of eden

we agree adam and eve would have had no children had they continued to live in the garden of eden and you can see that their distinct script script references are all Mormon, but the things that are Christian, they'll add a scriptural reference for that. So that last one you just said, that's total conjecture.

They had animals that were multiplying and procreate. They had God with them. They had the parts. They can't say they never would have had children. Yeah. And in the garden, Adam and eve were in a state of innocence not understanding good and evil and having neither joy nor misery that's to okay they don't understand good and evil maybe but they to have no joy or misery because of that that's a big one for them you cannot know joy unless you have misery confronting it it's a very humanist philosophy that they present well yeah so off the table is any possible idea of like

civilization or other creatures before the garden like these alternative perspectives it's like not even possible they don't touch it okay let's see okay so adam and eve brought about the fall by their own choice that doesn't seem true like because it's people are they're saying god wants it right so that's kind of double speak uh god wants it but it was their own choice satan was tempting them or the serpent was tempting them but it was their own but i agree it was their own choice because before eve ate of it she decided to eat of it and adam ate of it i think

simply because he wanted to be with eve i think she totally swayed him yeah he didn't even care so they it's almost like they're saying that god like teamed up with satan like satan is like a tool of gods yeah typically like not that there's a necessity of satan but that god wants satan around almost it's so wild eve was beguiled by satan partook of the fruit eve gave the fruit to adam he partook after adam partook of the fruit the lord told them the conditions of mortality that would confront them oh yes yes forget about the fact that eve and adam hid and lied about it and passed the buck

forget all of that stuff they just conveniently avoid all of that sinful stuff that came about now i won't go through all these details but the so the fall brought about significant changes for Adam and Eve's posterity. The fall was a purposeful step in God's plan of salvation. And in this life, we are subject to enticements of the flesh and the spirit.

For our agency to function, it was necessary thatan be allowed to tempt us yeah i don't that's really interesting that they think that they were in a spiritual state that maybe that's part of why they think it was a fall upward like it became material life like we have life without that fall yeah they don't say that but that very well could be a part of that philosophy well if it was not material until the fall is that correct that's what they say that's that's a big implication yeah it is they have a seamless body it's not that it doesn't make sense

fallen man became carnal sensual and devilish so all the suffering in the world that god uh wanted eve to introduce was introduced thank you god thank you for child cancer thank you for rape murder thank you for doing that for us but there's no other way the mormons say there was another way there was so what articulate from your view what the other way was god we don't know how to have children you said you wanted us to replenish the earth how do we do it i mean the mormons are saying they didn't even know it was

possible to have children right like how would they ask that question well because god commanded them to multiply and replenish the earth presumably they were too dumb to understand that but he still commanded them okay they haven't they they've moved it around instead of seeing adam as a very very intelligent creature that was good different from the animals could name the animals was given duties to do they ignore all that they act like he was just like if you go to the temple film in the mormon church and you see adam he's like this oh my gosh yeah yeah he named yeah that people's

perspective on the garden and the fall really says a lot about what they think humans are capable of yes more or less yeah they don't think there is anything they don't mormons don't think there's anything about humans that's possible without that fall then right like that we wouldn't have any purpose right and that's a conjecture because we believe god is more powerful than that.

He could have created it and instructed it and done something wonderful with it had men and women said, yeah, let's go along, let's try it. But they say no. Read the one where it says, if Adam and Eve, number three, under the fall was purposeful step. Under number four.

The Lord placed Adam and eva required to support themselves no uh it's under sorry for our agency to function it was necessary that satan be allowed to tempt us adam's fall gave him and his posterity the opportunity to obtain the joy that comes from choosing good over evil that's what that is what mormonism functions on is the what they are calling joy which is really like pure pride that they get they are the good people in the world and that's what else is if there's one way to describe how it felt being mormon it was that i felt that i felt like i was so much better than everyone because i used to be good like we were good and and i was young and i felt that and i see it in like people i know who are young being

raised in it and their parents their grandparents it's diabolical in terms of its outcome of what it does to people it is absolutely contrary to who christ was that's a really interesting part of this is that is the use of joy like joy is conflated with pride i think like like joy is what they call the thing that mormons that makes them all happy and stuff and really it's just the superiority complex. Yeah. And then read number three.

If Adam and Eve had not transgressed, they would have lived forever in innocence without children, thereby frustrating God's plan of salvation. That's why I say, so why did Satan tempt them? If it would frustrate God's's plan why did he tempt them to play along he should have done everything he could to keep keep them from eating from that tree doesn't make sense there's holes in it satan's bad that's why well they do they they go off and on and on about how bad satan is he's a tool he is the they talk more about satan than they do. They go off and on and on about how bad Satan is. He's a tool. He is the,

they talk more about Satan than they do about Jesus, at least in the past when I was there. Today, they talk about Jesus more, but they talked about Satan and his wiles to us day and night. um and this final one where it says death is a necessary part of god's plan that's like now that i'm thinking about it that is just so insane like the what yeshuans is teaching is that we don't have to die really like we're brought back to life now because of the work of christ that's the point of what god did for them to say death

is necessary i just i it seems completely opposite of what christ like why did christ resurrect like what what does that mean death death in the scripture is never good ever good it's always a painful punishment of sorrow and stinging but what they're saying is because of the fall death is a necessary part of God's plan.

And they're probably right, because if we live forever as fallen sinful creatures, I think we would be miserable. But from God's original plan, death was not a good thing. Yeah, no. It's like, I feel like they're saying're saying though that the fall had to happen because god wanted us to be dying right like that is not true right right true why what is there i just don't understand what they think about what god created before the fall and what the point of that was.

I think they thought it was the launching point to get human beings procreating and having more children and living in a trial and error basis, and then to learn to overcome and to choose right and to discover the gospel of Mormonism and get everything necessary to return to God and become a God yourself.

This is a probationary period for his children in heaven, spirit children in heaven coming down and needing bodies. That's one of the reasons why they have this is because heaven is filled with spirit children that God and his wives created. And in order for them to progress, they need to get a body and they need to come to earth to get it.

If Adam and Eve hadn't sinned, they wouldn't have known how to bring forth these children. And if they came forth with just spirit bodies, there'd be no reason for death. forth with just spirit bodies there'd be no reason for death therefore by them becoming material death was necessary for the progression of human beings to become like god okay but why they completely disregard the fact that according to what they think the point of life is, God could have set it up that way.

Yeah. God could have set it up that way, but he didn't. There had to be temptation and sinning for that to happen. So then, to me, I would think Mormonism would be based on, like, we should be sinning a lot. Like it does not like it doesn't transfer. Like we see the fall as being necessary. Not that the fall was necessary, but that the choice was necessary.

Like that is the whole point of the garden the way it was set up originally and the result was the the point is that we had choice we have choice I don't know just the way they I just don't understand why Mormons it seems like God would have set it up that way. Yeah. Or that they would consider sin in a different way now.

Yeah. Because sin is apparently really good for, for Eve to have done because they call it sin. That's the thing. No, they said it's transgression. They don't call it sin. But okay. Well, they don't think it was, they're saying it's a good thing, but they are not saying that that's how we should be living. It was still a bad thing and it's a good thing.

Yeah. It's, I just, it doesn't make sense. No, no. thing it's because what they do then they've created a system where people who are born and they live under this pretense of never having done anything wrong mormon really molly mormons you know peter priesteds they're held up is so great that and they get so proud of their own holiness because they've done everything and so none of it really matches up consistently and it's a contradiction does not make any sense it does not make sense but that really does exist i think i i think i had some of that in me just so young i can relate to it that

it's it's really there if you haven't been mormon before and you're watching this it's really there the idea that you're just better because you are born not needing to do wrong things yeah don't have that inclination in you and you are better for it they give you a different mindset it's a different operating system i am a child of god he has sent me here he's given me an earthly home with parents kind and dear and it's it's all about being part of this system that God has done to bring up more gods. That's what it's all about.

And it's really contrary to what we are from a biblical perspective, which is a bunch of messed up losers, especially from our pride. Yeah. Especially by our pride. Well, so given all of this, how would you describe the way Mormons consider Christ and what Christ did? Christ was created by God with special light.

He was the firstborn of all of God's spiritual children. And he was therefore the son of God pre-incarnate, and he, as our elder brother, volunteered to come down and suffer for all the sins that we do wrong. The Mormon's view of Christ is like he is a sin janitor, and it works like this. Ah, you didn't pass that test, Sean.

like this. Oh, you didn't pass that test, Sean. You failed in that one. Okay, you need to do this and this and this and this and this and show this, show repentance, do that. And the sin janitor will show up and he'll pay for that sin that you did. Once you've shown you have all the right amount of repentance and remorse and all the, and it's called our scarf.

You feel regret, you feel sorrow, you confess, you ask, you make restitution and you forsake. Those six our scarf steps are what Mormons say repentance is. If you had sex as a 14 year old, you do the our scarf and the last one's forsake. And if you never do it again, you're forgiven. If you did it again, that sin and all the others come upon you back upon you. That's their teaching.

So Jesus is the guy who comes out when you're worthy, when you've done everything necessary to show you're sorry for failing the test, and then he takes care of it. However, if you have struggle with a repeated problem, he takes a little bit longer to come out and meet you and a little bit longer every time because it's all conditional and it's based on you and your strength and so it's that is where bondage comes in and it's so contrary to what the bible teaches aren't you glad we're out of that i I can't hear you. Oh, sorry.

I just said that's really gnarly. And it's so hard to even think about. But I am glad we're out of that. Let's wrap our time up, Delaney. I want you to tell me, I want you to imagine if you can, that mom and I are still active in the ward, going to the temple. We're doing the whole thing today. And that you and your sisters are all part of it.

And that that is the thing that we live by. What can you see the results would be compared to what we've become by just following Yeshua? Dad, can you repeat that question? Yeah.

What do you think we would be if our family towed the LDS line even up till today? How would Mallory and Cassidy and you and your husbands and children be if we followed the Mormon route versus following Yeshua like we have and believing in him the way we believed? I feel like we would be like most other families that we see in that situation where one child is really proud and doing it well. One child is dysfunctional and cannot keep it afloat.

And one child is just as strange and not talking to anyone. And no one, we're all broken. We would be completely at odds from each other because we'd all have different relationships. with the church basically and we see i see that in so many families who have a bunch of lds children and they are you know especially in 2026 there's just so many different opinions and at least one person is completely off the rails at least one if not the whole but i know our whole family would just be completely broken

and the ones who are faithful are proud and look down on the ones who have lost yeah it's opposite of christianity yeah and christianity does this too like oh yeah the christian church i mean does this too oh yeah mormons are not religion does this yeah religion does this too. Oh yeah. Mormons are not, religion does this.

Yeah. Religion does this, but Mormon, Mormonism is a really, really potent example of it. So yeah, I really love holy lust and thinking about it through this lens. So thanks for coining that term and for the preparation. All right. Well, I love you, girl.

thank you for being willing you have the freedom delaney she could do whatever she wanted in terms of religion when she was i mean we took her to the mormon church but when i started going off she took it upon herself to follow her christian friends and uh i was really interested in where you were going but you did i mean you and mom were even on different pages for a very long time and yeah our family you really gave us well almost what felt like too much choice which i don't think is a bad thing but it can be no i not too much i'm just saying i'm emphasizing how open you were to allowing us to explore but you always like guided with you know this

is what i believe or you weren't just throwing us into a pit of wolves but yeah good well you girls have all made mom and i uh proud and your love for the king and that's all we care about thanks all right thanks anyone who's watching and we'll see you next week The road away is well taken. The road away is well taken.

The road away is well taken. The road away is well taken. The road away is well taken. The road away is well taken. The road away is well taken. We can do it all right. We can do it all right We can do it all right We can do it all right We can do it all right We can do it all right We'll see you next time. you