Joseph Smith, Jr. from the Yeshuan Perspective

Joseph Smith, Jr. from the Yeshuan Perspective

Transcripts:

I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Dear friend, if you want to feel better, don't let the devil make you toss this letter. If you've been crossed up by hoodoo, voodoo, the wizard or the loser. You got family trouble, man trouble, woman trouble, no life is a problem.

You're looking for a true friend or a true lover, or if you've been living under cover. Well, I'm coming to your town to break it all down and help you with all of this I'm looking to help you find bliss One day, one way, can't miss I'm here to tear all the walls down Doesn't matter if it's a large town or a small town Just like Joshua and the fabled walls of Jericho, I'm here to tear down the institution.

But you must tell seven friends. You must first bring seven friends. And don't be selfish and keep this all to yourself, and don't eat selfish. Hate is trying to take someone else's love for yourself. But I'm here to tell you that love is trying to take someone else's love for yourself But I'm here to tell you that love is trying to help someone else You need to see me right away so I can fix this, ah You need to see me right away You need to see me right away so I can fix this, ah You need to see me right about now

And if you are suffering a straight sickness or someone is blocking up all of your success you need to see me right away so I can fix this sound sincerely yours in faith love and, your friend Archbishop Harold Holmes. Welcome to Heart of the Matter. I'm Delaney. I'm Sean. This is the Epiphany Series. So tonight we're going to have a conversation, me and my father, about the founder of the LDS Church, Joseph Smith.

Yeah. Did you have something to say? Always. Say it. Well, I was just going to say, this subject, there are hundreds, thousands of people who have commented and remarked and talked about him in positive and negative ways and he prophesied that that would happen so the lds members love that he his name would be known for good or evil good and evil is that what he said wow and uh so but we have an approach it's a little bit slightly different than others um And so that will come out as we continue to talk. All right. We are Yeshuans, yeshuans.faith, and that will show you maybe

part of the perspective that we come from. So dad, tell us a little bit about why you're qualified to talk about Joseph Smith here. Okay, so first of all, our family, LDS, all my daughters baptized in the Mormon church, raised to a certain extent in it. Yes, non-LDS people love to comment on Joseph Smith and I'm sorry, you can't comment unless you were born and raised. Truly, truly. In fact, you don't know it. Yeah. And there's so many like anti-Mormons who think they get the facts down, but they don't

get the zeitgeist down of the whole thing. Yeah. No one can comment on Mormonism unless you've been one. I'm sorry. I hope you people hear that. And so, and then in the church, my wife, Delaney's mom, and I were married in the Los Angeles temple sealed for time and all eternity. We went to the temple every week in the first two years of marriage.

I taught early morning seminary. I've taught, went on a mission. I've been at a bishopric, stake high council, taught Sunday school. I've read most books, pro and con, about Joseph Smith. Mostly con because the church taught me the pro side, but I know that there's more sides to him that are positive.

And then, but most importantly, I know the Bible, that comparatively to Mormonism. So that is probably the most distinguishing factor, but the one where it's kind of personal to me and people might accept this if they're Jungians and if they believe in this kind of thing, but I believe that that there's a zeitgeist of a people type like Smith, and I'm very much like that.

I'm not him. I'm not another one of him. But I understand his person really well, and I have for years understood that. It's like two people who played volleyball understanding each other. You have the same material thing, and you guys even like bodily are similar and bodily, our family, our wives, all of these factors about how we are similar.

And, and so I think that has played into the ministry we've done. And one, uh, uh, to me, your understanding of the Bible bible which that's what heart of the matter is is you have been comparing mormonism to the bible basically all this whole time and uh that's why your understanding of joseph smith is really strong because he was criticizing the bible yeah it wasn't that he was just coming up with a new religion. It was based off of Christianity that he made his changes. Is that, you know, and you know how he did that. And this was pointed

out by a Biola scholar years ago is he outsmarted the pastors of his day with the Bible. He knew it better than they did. And so, uh, he was able to construct a new system from the Bible that was completely fictitious and really imaginative, but there were truths in it that the pastors were missing.

And so he was able to bring this thing forward and then mesh it in with Freemasonry, created this system, and we can see that it has beaten all of the other churches. Yeah, it was smart at the very least. I have a lot of questions for you about him, but we'll keep it going. You can ask him as we go. Okay. Well, what are some of the things that made him what he was? Okay. made him what he was. Okay.

First and foremost, he came into a family where the grandfather and his dad both believed in their family narrative that their family was going to bring forth someone to restore the true church to the earth. Okay. He had that on him as a baby. So they actually thought that about him. Wow. Yeah. And, uh, and then his relationship with his dad, his brothers, his siblings, there's a ton of kids. They were poverty stricken.

The dad lost all of his money in a ginger swindle with China and they lived in poverty they were out in the woods and he was just like this charmer magician weird dude who knew how to convince people of things and so in that environment of a family they had a lot of religious talk and they would talk a lot about the Bible his mother pushed for the Bible she she wanted everybody in the family be religious but the dad did not believe in organized religion because he thought it needed to be restored so and then his grandfather both thought it was supposed to be restored. So this mantle was sort of upon Joseph Smith and the family dynamic was central to almost

everything that led him to do what he did. That's the first thing. And then the state of Christianity at that time, it was during what was called the burned over district in history. Christians all know this. Back east in New York area. And there were revivals going on everywhere. And people were saying, we have the truth.

And another pulpit, we have the truth. And there was this fervor for religiosity going on. And he would go, sometimes with his mom and sometimes with other people, and he would watch and hear what was being said oh wow so and he was very interested in how come everyone's claiming to have it right and yet they're arguing so that was really big christianity sounds familiar yeah yeah and then he was fearless in his imagination and the things that he would say.

I believe completely, like I believe, that every religion since 70 AD has been the creation of people with the spirit of man. The Roman Catholic Church, they all have taken their own ideas and put them together. Well, Smith was no different. And he looked at Christianity. They were, the family was ensconced in Masonry, Freemasonry.

And they also understood folk magic really well. which was very popular then discovering hidden secret gold buried and so as a kid he would go around and convince farmers that he could find buried treasure okay so it wasn't that far-fetched at that time no to say i looked in the hat oh not far-fetched at all as part of the the whole culture okay so it wasn't like he was just alone now i'm sure there were christians who said that's of the devil yeah but he was from a folklore magic place and so the stuff he did you know was all part and

parcel of creating this religion i honestly think that when he saw that he couldn't make a living of telling people where he could find hidden gold that he when he started to talk about religion and he found people believed him i really think he said i'm gonna kind of do something with this yeah i really do and i think he started off with good intentions and again you think these things because maybe you kind of relate to him i relate to him and then i've read the biographies by the people who have written about him pro and con and it just seems to me by sitting there and reading between the lines

he couldn't have been this evil diabolical human being that people today want to put him to be because he wouldn't have had a following like that yeah no he got very well i don't know about that yeah but he got really respectable hard-working know about that. Yeah. But he got really respectable, hardworking people to follow him and believe what he would say.

I know. But like, to me history shows that people that get people to believe what they say usually are coercive. They're selling it. You know, like you might for instance i think you've been very deliberate and not being a salesman yeah with because you see that you have the capacity to do that like he he bought into it that i wouldn't say is a good thing no i'm not saying it was good but i am saying there's a difference between being diabolically coercive and being persuasive and a salesman and a charmer.

And if you were going to categorize him as anything, it would be as an imaginative, syncretic, meaning he could hear about a thing in this form and that form and put them together and make something of it. thing in this form and that form and put them together and make something of it yeah okay yeah there's a famous cartoon in sunstone magazine where joseph smith's wife emma says get out there and and clean the field and uh he's like okay geez you never do anything but sit there and think and she goes well let me have my tea first and she delivers tea and then the next thing you see

my tea first and she delivers tea and then the next thing you see him and that's how he was yeah so uh but we'll get to what it came to uh and he was without question an organizational genius he knew government he read the papers he he was a hayseed in terms of education, but smart as a whip when it came to amalgamating all those things into a system.

Also, you said the folk stuff was accepted, but was Freemasonry accepted? Oh, yeah. Freemasonry was like heralded as a really good thing. Okay. Even for Christians? Yeah, for everybody in that day because it was against tyranny and it was this fraternal order of goodness uh but what happened was they killed somebody the freemasons yeah the freemasons killed a dude named morgan and the uh because he threatened to reveal all their secret oaths and so uh and jose Joseph Smith married, if I got this right, Morgan's widow.

Oh my gosh. But the killing Morgan caused the world to turn on Freemason. Yeah. And Freemasonry began to fall apart at that point because of what they did. So Smith, he took the whole Freemason ethic and he turned it into part of his governing system because at this point he was beyond being reeled in for anything he thought was of God. Yeah. He just took everything and put it in.

Like you mean he didn't have any conviction on what he said being of God or not? He didn't care? That's one thing I don't think the guy cared about. I don't think he cared whether God said it or not. I think he thought, I think this will work. So let's try this one. And a lot of it did. Yeah. Yeah. Including making Masonic temples into Mormon temples.

Wow. Like literal Masonic, they changed them? No, he took the right and he reincorporated it into the Mormon way so if you talk to like a historian on Freemasonry they'll all say Mormons just stole everything from us and they literally I was on my Mormon mission when we went into a Masonic temple and I couldn't believe I was standing there looking at these men dressed in the same clothes we wore in the temple I didn't know that wow yeah green apron and hat and all this wow yeah the actual wow the actual yeah same so they're very different but again he's

imaginative so he could restructure it in a way that would and it's fascinating if you read books about that. Yeah. All right. Also, wait. Okay. Stop. Stop. What? Um. He had a really strong sense of spiritual forces in the world. sense of spiritual forces in the world. He knew kind of, and it seems to me like the dark ones influenced him.

And in that, that fomented from a man who just was trying to start something different and make a go of it to him becoming so, so in his head that he started taking on the wives and he ultimately ordained himself King of the world and said that he had done more than even Jesus Christ. Yeah. I mean, he seems like his life seems like the trajectory that one would take when you're trying to build something and not trying to follow God.

Yeah. Like it. It's like a classic case. Exactly. It's like a classic celebrity downfall kind of case. It's a celebrity downfall. kind of case it's a celebrity downfall and the interesting thing about that too is that the latter-day saints you know they embraced the early jesus stuff about him yeah and because it did make a lot of sense because he knew the bible yeah and the book of mormon is really a bible book full of error but a bible book that i believe he wrote with his dad and with oliver cowdery and with other resources that he incorporated in the book because remember he could read a

newspaper and he could incorporate an event of the day into the book of mormon and he did so he incorporated all kinds of stuff into that book and if you really read it carefully jenny larson's really smart on that he knows and, and you can see it. People say, how did he write the book? Just wake up, man.

Danny is talking to Mormons. That's his channel, by the way. So he was like a visionary. He starts going off the rails a little bit toward the end of his life. Did it get cut off by, because brigham young was his like the next next in line yeah did he sort of cut joseph off and take over to keep it on the rails what happened was um smith had a detractor who was once part of his team that exposed his polygamy in a newspaper.

So that wasn't public, the polygamy. It was hidden and it was, I mean, there was a whole bunch of internecine clandestine operations going on. Smith literally is quoted saying, I only have one life that I know of when it's proven. But now the church today is saying he never practiced it. It was Brigham Young who introduced it, not Smith.

There's all these things. But Todd Compton's book, In Sacred Loneliness, is a must read for anyone who wants to believe he didn't. It's LDS written and it will prove the dude had wives all over from 14 years of age all the way up he loved banging girls bottom line okay okay and okay so uh but also uh he was full of the lust of the world pride love for money love for people love his family.

So what he did as a means to cope with his own sin nature, because he does seem to care about God relative to holiness and goodness, which is why he formed Freemasonry. He said he kind of made everything legal through revelations he would get, you know, and that's how taking on another wife was legal, but adultery is not. And so they systematized a bunch of very earthly things into the faith to make it look like God was behind it.

And he had the chutzpah to do that. And we should keep going. But at that time, because he like drank alcohol and stuff, didn't he? He had a bar in his hotel. But the thing with that time is that their revelations came by virtue of need. For instance, since they were all smoking, spitting tobacco, Emma came in was pissed.

And so he had a revelation that they, the tobacco is not, yeah, it worked like that. He would, was it actually that? Actually that? That's, that is, yeah. But drinking was fine then. But he had the doctor in the covenants revelation on the word of wisdom.

But it was, it was beer and barley drinks were okay but hard spirits were not out here in utah they used to drink beer all the time because it wasn't against the word of wisdom okay all right okay so this is that was him as a man what contributed to him and what he did with the faith oh well him knowing the bible him looking at christianity all around his dad and grandpa believing that he needed to restore the true church back to the face of the earth okay all of those things had a play into him creating the faith when his oldest brother alvin died suddenly i think it was alvin died uh just destroyed the family. He was beloved by the family. Joseph loved him too. And he died

because they gave him the wrong medicine. And a preacher came to their house and said he's in hell because he wasn't baptized. Smith created the baptism for the dead thing that they could do. So he was an opportunist that took his own life's problems and merged him into a theological well that's why it works yeah it works yeah it faces all the real life problems and gives you an answer for it that's exactly right good point and a guy named alexander campbell who uh who was a predecessor to smith and founded something called the Worldwide Church of God no excuse me

founded the disciples of Christ he wrote and this was when the Book of Mormon was just out the Book of Mormon answers every single problem question that Christianity has had from the get-go. Infant baptism, blah, blah, blah. That's what he did. And he was good at it. Problem was, he wasn't as smart in the Bible as he thought he was.

And when you see the through line of his failures and his ego coming in and assuming things, you can destroy the guy. Destroy him theologicallyologically and that is where he's beaten theologically all right um okay so let's do some pros and cons okay like what did he get right and what did he get wrong like you know theologically with christianity whatever all right i wrote a couple things out on that one first religious authority in his day was corrupt he got that right okay always is always has been correct right okay uh but he failed when he said i I'm going to establish a new religious authority. They always do.

And restore the best to them all. Yeah. You know, now people might look at what we're doing and saying, we're doing that. We're not doing that. We are not doing that at all. We are showing what has always been and should have always been. And we aren't starting a church. We are saying he came back. It's over, done.

And this is what we're. Yeah. Not a brick and mortar institution. Yes. a church, we are saying he came back, it's overdone, and this is what we're... Yeah, that... Not a brick and mortar institution. Yes, not saying this is... It's kind of saying there is no faith, no collective faith anymore. Right, it is saying that.

It is, yeah, like... Yeah. When I was a Mormon missionary, we used to go around and have the 17 points of the true church. We'd give it to people. What other church has a prophet? What other church has an apostle? What other church has a prophet? What other church has an apostle? What other church has priesthood? And all of it is anachronistically applied. Mormons are blinded to that, so that's one thing.

The purpose of life is to face your trials. We call it the proving ground. And for each individual to prove who they love and how they want to live to God. He had that right. It was absolutely, I think, correct. Yeah. And the LDS today haven't lost that really. They still understand it that way. us today haven't lost that really. They still understand it that way.

Yeah. They call it the plan of salvation. Unfortunately, they tied in a pre-existent state, which was straight from Plato and Swedenborg, all predecessors to Smith on that one. He was not original to a pre-existent state. And that's why Walt Whitman even wrote in Leaves of Grass that we come in trailing clouds of glory from God.

It was known in the narrative of thinkers in that day. So he was not original. So he took that. It seems like none of it's original. which is not a bad thing to me. He's like an amalgamator. He's an amalgamator. He's a syncretist. And most of it is reformatted to fit his thing. Yeah. Which is why it's good. Like he didn't have to convince people of some new system.

It was just like combining things that already were understood. Absolutely. So that's what his talent was. Yeah. And if you really want to see most Mormons are the same. Most Mormons fall from the tree of Smith. They're not original and much stuff. But they are derivative and they can take something and they use it. Yes.

So it happens in this state all the time. It's embarrassing how unoriginal they can be you know their art sucks their music sucks right okay yeah so uh but here's the problem where he went wrong yeah this might be a proving ground he gave a good reason for living but we didn't come from a pre-existence because that's not biblical by any means.

And also he provided the system to get you through the proving ground where the Bible clearly shows God is the system. His spirit is the system, not rights, rituals, laws, and religion. So he has a true thing, but he has a false thing. Yeah. Okay. That makes sense. I mean, we could do this about every religion but but mormonism really he really created such an ingenious system what else so the next one was uh smith was because he was a freemason and because he did all that, he was all, the Book of Mormon is a book against tyranny. And it's a book that tyranny and all the twin double-headed monsters of society

that America was against, Smith was against too. Okay. But so he loved liberty he was all for everyone believing like they want we believe that all mankind can believe and do whatever they want one of his articles of faith very open because that's how america was tyranny and uh freedom of speech could not be trump stepped on that had to be free and he was really bad mormons are still big on that. We want our freedom. That's why they're almost always conservative right-wing Republicans.

But when he destroyed the printing press that was speaking against him for polygamy, he literally had it burned down. That was the beginning of the end for him. That's when a mob came and killed him. Because he broke the liberty of the press and he, he was the one who did it.

So he had become despotic and he said, they're not going to spend, I'm going to destroy that printing press in America. That was it. So they use their power to control what they say is liberty and freedom. And they still do that today. They do it through their laws on everything. And that's why they're so ensconced in politics. So they manipulate and they control you through their means of having liberty is the way to say it.

They have the importance of the spirit very big in the Mormon church is the criticism that Christians have, oh, they just get to believe what they want. And they do. They're just insane with the stuff they will conjure up. They'll say, the Spirit told me this. And as long as it's not against their ways, people accept it, whatever.

But they don't use the metric to test the Spirit. They don't use a well understood biblical through line. They just use what they've been taught. The feelings. The feelings. They really appeal to the feelings. The feeling with the spirit. And Christians, so that's where they went wrong.

That's not how a Bible believer would do it. They'd say, I feel this. Now let's see what God says about that. You know, I feel polygamy is right. Is that what Joseph, does that come from Joseph? Because he would claim the spirit on things he felt and say it was by revelation. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. And then they established a culture of corporate holiness.

If there's a church on earth that was doing what the New Testament describes, they would come very close. They really would because they believe in following holiness and good living and not smoking and drinking and premarital sex, all the things you can read about in the New Testament church. It's not quite the church. drinking and premarital sex, all the things you can read about in the New Testament church, Apostolic Recon Church.

But the problem is they use laws, rites, rituals, and all kinds of Masonic stuff to keep that enforced as well as excommunications. So those are some of the give and takes. That's why as a people, they look so good in Christianity. but it's because of the mesh with masonry and a pseudo-Christianity that forms the basis for this thing.

Can I ask, why is it wrong if they don't believe that Christ has returned? Why is it wrong that they use laws to keep their people in line? Because they claim to follow the Bible. And Paul makes it very clear, and so does Christ really in the Sermon on the Mount. If you are going to get to God through perfection, you have to do it perfectly by law.

You have to do everything. And the writer of Galatians and James make it clear that if you break one part, so you obey the law your whole life, you steal a cookie before you die. You go to hell because you broke the whole law, which doesn't come, it doesn't come in pieces. It's the one whole thing.

So to use law will ultimately prove it doesn't work yeah that's the problem with using laws well i will say it does seem like the mormon church has less deviance in terms of like its leaders like the catholic church has all the molestations and stuff like i know there's weird sexual stuff with bishops talking to people is it but there's not a lot of they have a lot of molestation they do a lot of secret sexual crime they have a lot of incestual crime that sounds right that stays very hidden yeah and more and more is coming out okay but what makes it so hard to get to is their order of silence with each other.

They don't let stuff come out where the Catholic Church doesn't have that control. So I agree that it looks like they're really sanitized. Yeah, it does. And then if you just strip away like the really egregious sin, like sex stuff and drunkenness and stuff, but you look at their heart toward money and pride.

I mean, yes, it's horrific. And that comes straight from Joseph Smith. And by the way, Elizabeth smart thing, uh, that was straight from the tree of Joseph Smith, straight from it. That guy went out and did what Smith did. No one talks about that, but it's the fruit of the same tree. Yeah. All right. Okay. talks about that yeah but it's the fruit of the same tree yeah all right okay so so what did he introduce then that was like completely wrong oppositional not okay yeah all that he inserted in our opinion amounts to idolatry god's central command is have no idols and

everything that he did it introduces idolatry into the faith which is in a blanket statement of everything he introduced is wrong it's it's all a it's all a an intercessory midpoint between God and man. But theologically, the fall, he rewrote the meaning of the fall. And this is so diabolical because he said it was a fall upward. He said it was good that Eve ate of that tree of knowledge of good and evil.

And that because of that, man would be able to learn how to have sex, to have kids. And that we learn through trial of suffering and all this, how to really be in this world. And there are so many holes in that theologically, we don't have time for, but the fall is such a bastardization of what God was really saying and doing there that from the very start, it's diabolical.

I mean, there's no justification for what they say. It's truly dark. Yeah. So that's the first thing. Their priesthood claims. Do you have a question on the fall? That's just really like worth thinking through the implications of thinking of it that way. Because I kind of am like that. There's a point like how what how would adam and eve have functioned in this world without the knowledge like i see what he's saying and it's horrible because it makes logical sense yeah it's logical and that's how it works backward also but the the the biblical

thinking is god said to adam and eve don't eat a of that tree, eat of the tree of life. And I'll tell you what, I walk with you in the cool of the day. So if they didn't know how to procreate, one, they could have looked at the animals. Two, they could have asked God. And the idea was they would have had children who would have grown and the world would have been would this world would be that heavenly kingdom where no sin or death would exist and human beings would choose to love God freely and live by faith alone.

The alternative to live by their own knowledge and to take a secret knowledge that would make them like God's is so contrary to what God wanted. So we say, well, then what would have happened? They would have just been in that garden for... No, I mean, there's, yeah.

So really the picture of the garden is just like the picture we say of heaven. You know, we're going to go to this place and it's going to be great. And that was the picture of the garden. But so there's, there's the thing. Okay. He has priesthood claims and those are so full of holes. It is one of the biggest things you can blow a hole through is their priesthood claims.

When we went to the stake president, his whole thing was about priesthood. People say they were healed by the power of the priesthood. They give all credit to the priesthood. It's an idol. That is so disturbing. And according to the biblical narrative, it's such a joke. They fabricated scripture. He fabricated the Book of Mormon, called it the most correct book on the face of this earth, just like Muhammad fabricated the or got the Koran and said it's the most correct book on the face of the earth.

And then he claimed to have revelations that put together the Doctrine and Covenants. And then he claimed that he got a text that was written by Abraham and that he could translate it. And he translated it into the book of Abraham, only to find out later that when they found the Rosetta Stone and learned what the Egyptian hieroglyphics really were. It was a funerary text.

The book of Abraham that they used to call scripture is now pretty much a death knell to any truth about Smith. He was proven wrong, but Mormons just, well, he didn't, it's always, you know, you believe what you want to believe. So the scripture was saying temple. He put the veil back up. When you go into a Mormon temple, there's veils. And you have someone on the other side sticking their hand through doing Masonic symbols, wearing the hats, doing all this stuff.

He just created this system. And temple's veil came down when Christ died, signifying I am reconciled to the world. Smith put it back up. Diabolical in nature. Materialization of God. And by the way, Smith was not original in this. There's a quote from Tertullian that is exactly what the Mormons believe in.

Think Smith was so original. And Tertullian said, everything is material, including spirit. Spirit's only more refined. And so that's what Smith taught. It's more refined. Mormons believe it, and they think it's original to him. And Tertullian, who is considered somewhat heretical and out there, he also taught that as an early patristic father. Okay. And that includes the creation of Christ, that Christ was made. Christ came forward from God, the Father and his wives in the pre-existent state when God

became God. And then they had their firstborn spiritual son in the person of Christ that's how Christ was he was the brightest among all of God's children okay so we're brothers and sisters with him yeah we are brothers and sisters spiritually with Christ Lucifer was one of them all of that all of that mythos borrowed from the Greeks is part of their stuff.

Works righteousness, you know, it's a really hotly debated thing. But when I grew up, it was, you are not saved by grace. That's a pernicious lie. You are saved by God's grace once you've done everything that you can to save yourself. And they debate all that now, but that's central, what they think. Book of Abraham mentioned laws, period.

Paul says the law kills. And we are dead to the law. They were violent. They were a violent people. Joseph Smith had a henchman named Porter Rockwell. By the way, that's your nephew's middle name. And Porter Rockwell was a murderer. He went and he killed people on behalf of Smith, Mount Meadows Massacre, where they killed the Fancer Party, 123, 126 people, bloodshed.

My cousin, not my nephew. Oh, sorry. Because it implies different things. And they created a proud us versus them mentality. We have the truth. All other churches are false. They're lies. They're of Satan. And the temples used to teach that. I taught that as a missionary going door to door. Now their prophet, seer, and revelator says, we accept.

they're just so phony in what they were to what they are saying they are now and they are all that is in the world and next week we're going to have a show on something i call holy lust and we'll talk about how mormonism embodies holy lust and finally they put everybody in their system in bondage that's the worst thing that they do. And so it makes them hypocrites.

It makes them law abiding, but not able to keep the law. It makes them make promises every week when they take the sacrament that they will do all that God says, knowing full well, they're going to send the next day. It just is a complete contradiction in terms of authenticity and realness before God.

That's what Smith created. All right. That is, I mean, it's true. I kind of want to insert another small question here on, um, you know, we said what they do, right? Like pros and cons and cons but and that was all the bad stuff that you just listed that's oppositional is there anything that's like purely in line without a con you know we did pros and cons they kind of get this right but is there anything that's like completely correct there's a we coined a word on tv called twistianity and uh and uh smithmas during christmas we call it smithmas every single thing that they have right there's a twist to it

okay every single thing so uh i don't know of anything that they have that is absolutely clearly biblical other than like baptism by immersion. I mean, people can agree with that, but that has to be by someone with the proper priesthood authority. It's like they criticize the Trinity, but the way they do it is off. Right. So far off. I can't think of anything. The Bible, Jesus is always a twist.

Everything about them is twisted and it starts with the fall of pre-existence and it just keeps going, going, going to where you are an about face to what God actually did. Yeah. Okay. So how do you explain the existence of Mormonism today if it's so off power growth money dedication the dedication people know all the things that you just said and they're completely devoted so yeah it's it's an amazing seamless body of false theology and it traps people because it makes so much logical sense to them when you learn it from a child from your parents when you learn that you

can be sealed in a temple and be a family together that existed before and if you do everything by the priesthood and your temple covenants and then those steps and laws work yeah but this is what people don't seem to understand is that if you join the mormon church and you follow the protocols that they have established they work They work. Yeah. I'm just now realizing a facet of our perspective and articulating religion and Mormonism especially is a closed system.

Yeah. Like when a system is closed and all the parts function with each other, it works. That's right. And Mormonism is the best at it christianity is also a closed system they're all but we're trying to open it where it's like all inputs need to work for the system to work that's right for it to be right for it to be correct yeah and of god and whatever so that's religion yeah that makes sense why people are okay with it this plays right into what you and i talk about a lot is because religious systems are teleologically based yeah and it

makes the other evil like it makes you see good and evil really clearly wow i've never thought of it like a closed it's a close why why people are okay with it because we function that way on closed systems. Yes, we do. There's no variable. We have a leader. We know the truth. We don't have to think. We live our life. The system's working. My job, I've kept it. We're healthy.

All of those things are blessings in this realm for a system that was established in this realm and operates off this realm principles and people don't understand that's what Mormonism is. But when that's why I am certain that the Mormons who thought the system represented God and bought into it hook line and thinker and didn't have a care for the truth are going to be sorely disappointed and surprised when they go to the heavenly realm because it's just going to be like completely wasted our entire life yeah yeah well um joseph smith seemed to make the best closed system because of what you described how he wasn't afraid to incorporate

all sorts of as many inputs as he could as he possibly could it it incorporates more than any other religion kind of i mean yeah and yeah and and and so the question becomes, why does it exist? God lets it. We have dominion over this world. I feel like it's not even a question. It makes so much sense that it exists.

It's of this world. It's the way this world functions. Of course it exists. It's a world religion that works. Here's the other side to it. I don't know how long we've gone, but this is important. We can go to part two next week. We have time. Yeah. But if you break the covenants, because you, you make, you lift your hand to the square, you make a covenant at baptism.

You make a covenant every time you take the sacrament. You make a covenant when you go to the temple, to God, angels, and witnesses, and, and you're making a covenant to a God, angels, and witnesses. And you're making a covenant to a world system that has power, which I think was clearly anointed by the blood of innocent people, like the Fansher Party.

It has power. And if you buy into that system, live by that system, and gain the benefits of that system. And then you turn from it, you will suffer the consequences of that in this life. Most people don't know that the way to overcome those consequences is by and through a direct relationship with God, but they don't know that.

And so they become a cautionary tale in their life because they leave the system of law and this, this, this, this to being drinkers and partiers. And so the churches, see, they left the church. They have fallen away because Satan now has them. The reality is Satan has them. And when they've left that, they are up to their own will and ways and they don't have any type of a structure to keep themselves straight so they fall apart.

That's why our family is a unique case because all of us, knock on wood, follow the living God. We all left actively Mormonism. Is it easy? No. Individually, not as a group. Not as a group. We uniquely each follow. Yeah. And then in time, everybody decided that they wanted to follow God in spirit and truth and not another religion.

We didn't just go from Mormonism to Roman Catholicism. We said, we want to know what the truth is here. Yeah. And I mean, even the ex Mormons who are the drinker, whatever, like seem lawless, have they, they're itching for structure and making community with each other. Like there's all these ex Mormons influencer people who have to, they're creating communities because they need a structure. Yes. And so John Glenn and RFM and all these guys are doing that.

Yeah. That's religious. It's as much of the same thing. They're not saying God's involved. So maybe that's better. I don't know. I don't know. Yeah. But that's something that the other side to it is that Mormonism practices on their members for year after year after year scorched earth policies. Every week you get up and say, we are the only true church. We have the priesthood.

The truth was restored and you believe that. Yeah. So then, and, and, and then when my age, you go to the temple and the pastors are in the, uh, enrollment of the devil and all that. So then when you leave the church, you're, you don't want another religion because you have been scorched on all religion. So they knew how to mind screw their members from the start. Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah.

And I don't think it's opening up at all. I think the, the claims that things are changing, they don't say Holy Ghost, they say Holy Spirit, they talk about Jesus, they gay people can do X, Y, and Z. Like that is a ruse to make you think it's more open. It's like anything if you just challenge it enough you'll find it's not open right like at some point it will be closed to you it was closed to you you tried to get back in with all like acceptance and love and you can't get back in so conform yeah the other thing about that's

interesting about that delaney is that so many of these bleeding broken sheep leave mormonism because they get a library card and they find out the facts and they go out into the world and they go into an evangelical church where it's mormon they, they go into all these different expressions and they just go, why don't I go to a church as a cultural hall where my kids can play in a primary program and the priesthood and they go back.

Yeah. And that's what's happening. And they found the spirit again. They found that. Right. Because that's the other thing is it is all so emotional, like they have reference in there and they sing the song. And so they feel, they feel. I see so much stuff that was like, I just fell away and I'm so, I'm in the spirit again.

Yeah. Cause you, yeah. Yeah. You're in the spirit of this world. Yeah. I don't, maybe one of the main things is that the spirit does not make you comfortable. No. It might give you eternal sense of peace, and that is not comfortable in this life. No. And people associate the comfort of their religion with the spirit.

That's right. It is peaceful. Yeah. And that is part of the lust of this world. Yeah. Which we'll talk about next week. Next week. Holy lust. That's a very good phrase. Holy lust. Okay. So your question was, how do we explain the existence today? It's growth and power and money and overt dedication of its members.

We talked about the overt dedication, but everything before Christ has been placed under his feet from the biblical model. Everything after Christ, God has allowed allowed now why do I say that because God has allowed Jim Jones he's allowed the Catholic Church he's allowed all sorts of religious insanity past his son that men have created and he gave us dominion over this earth he he lets us have the spirit of man to move in the right direction or the wrong direction.

And Mormonism is a move in this world toward goodness, tree of knowledge of good and evil. So they don't do overtly evil things. And we've talked about this. You, you don't see black shirts in the Mormon church. You don't see Metallica shirts. Evil looking things. You don't see evil looking things. You can't even wear a mask on Halloween.

You can't do anything that looks evil. They say because you're supposed to avoid the very appearance of evil, not realizing that in this world, that's just the choice of aesthetics. The real appearance of evil is pride. The real appearance of evil is pride. The real appearance of evil is arrogance and meanness.

But they say the real appearance of evil are these material expressions, right? They have the appearance of evil to the nines. Yeah. Yeah. So the LDS empire, Smith tapped into powerful unseen drivers organizationally that serve to collect a body of people in the material realm and it serves the world.

And I can't deny that. But that's the thing. If you want this life to be good and structured and feel progressive and like you're doing something for God, be a Mormon. It's good for your family. You'll have something to go to. You're always busy. You'll be in bondage if you do what they say. But that's fine. There's an exchange price.

But don't think that it represents God. That's the lie about it. Yeah. All right. So what else? Am I done? Well, can I ask you some final questions? Yeah. So all your time, 40 years seeking, testing, vetting things by the biblical narrative, what are your thoughts on these different things like the state of this present world now i think that um back when you were just a baby maybe a little older i told uh your sisters you're going to start to see an amalgamation of forces in this world you're you told me i remember you like you mentioned like they'll mix

they'll mix foods like asian fusion with what i like all and we do it's that's everything now you totally called it and and like music festivals we'll have a rapper and it will have a metal and it will that world the tattoo world is going to mesh into one it's going to be the dark world of of people who don't care about god and it's going to be and it's going to be an amalgamation of light and that are people of faith okay so we have to if we want to be united in good and the things of God, let people have the faith they want to have because they're

going to have it anyway. And just unite with them in an effort to extol faith, whatever your beliefs are, Mormons included, and love. But what I see in the world now is this ongoing war for the different parts of each side trying to figure out who gets to control and who gets to win yeah okay that's how i see it okay um so what about defenders of organized religion i think organized religion serves its place um kind of similar to um exercise equipment for somebody who's out of shape uh it'll do it, but there's other ways to do it.

And so if you need organized religion, it's there, but there's a better way to be in relationship with God and it is what God prescribed. So your point about the fusion and defensively, like really what's going on is like a recategorization. We've talked about, it's like a new economy yeah there's like what once was you are categorized by the system that you assign yourself to it's like shifting around where you're categorized more by immaterial qualities than absolutely so defenders of organized religion it seems like they could fall in different camps

like how they defend it the use of it maybe is fine but the fact that it's of god is not yeah i mean it's it's helping it's kind of all up in the air right now so that's why we all feel so confused and we feel so where do we turn definitions are don't exist anymore everything boundaries yeah and so i think that people of faith are going to re-coagulate the light into a place in the world that is going to serve as salt and light against the putrefaction of the dark yeah because i feel like we've been accused of being the perpetrators of the up in the airness.

Oh. You know, like to make it all subjective. And we're not doing that. But like there is a sense of, you know, shaking the ark. Yeah. Like that happened in the deconstructing. Yeah. But it's not that we want it to sit there no it's the reco i like that like a coagulation of the light the light yeah and that's going to take an effort on our part and we're going to start to talk about that in our third series on sunday school starting next week this week is the final of the second series okay and that is going to be how to funnel and vet faith. Wow. Yeah. Because

this is awesome. Yeah. Those things are going to be necessary for us to understand how to be united in the light with people we just absolutely don't agree with. Yeah. Yeah. I encourage anyone listening to watch the Sunday Schooled on Yeshuans, the Yeshuan model channel. Yeah. What about people who defend Mormonism? What do you think of that? I think that they have that right.

I think that they should be loved. I think that they should be countered with truth if invited. But until that, you know, they are going to do what they're going to do. And we might as well sidle up with someone who wants to do good and at least speaks for God, even though they do it so horribly, in my estimation, because there are people in their pews who are good and they don't realize what has happened to them.

Just like there's good Catholics who don't know what the Catholic church has done to them and everyone down the line. So the people we love, the Mormons we love. Mormonism, we can say, well, we don't necessarily think you're doing it right, but that's between you and God. And that attitude will lend to a collectiveness. That's between you and God.

And that attitude will lend to a collectiveness. But the thing you have to understand with this advice is that the Mormons will try to take you, if you join with them in the light, and bring you into what they do. That is an endless thing they're trying to do. And that's why Christians are, pastors are afraid of them.

Yeah. Because they're always recruiting. Yeah. Like as religion does, they won't let people make the mistake because they're scared of where it could go, which is real. Yeah. Don't take heroin because it might make you an addict. But like some people have to make the mistake to figure it out. And they need that freedom.

Yeah. So let's say that somebody in our family, well, I'm not even going to use a name, but one of our family members says, I'm going to go back to the Mormon church. Go, check it out, see what you think. Because when you trust God, you cannot go wrong. Because if it's right for them, they'll stand. and if it's not he'll lead them out yeah or maybe they even go their whole life with with it being wrong and then the next life it will be okay that's right it's not this we gotta stop all this yeah and christians have made at the end of the world because of a false eschatology okay okay so

what about what about like scholars though of mormon I think, first of all, the word scholar is a joke to me because one, they only are going by how they've been trained. That's why we, all of our scholars argue with each other. Yeah. Once again, closed system, like self-referential. Okay.

You know how to describe the thing you studied. Right. when i see a mormon scholar yeah in the end if they don't see the through line of the scripture and they support mormonism they are laughable but the mormons hold them up as someone to and they can so that's what i would say okay so what do you think of joseph smith j after all this? I think he was a man who got started based off all predetermining factors.

And I think that it went to his head like it always does to all men and women. And I think that God is his judge. And I think that he could have done something in this world akin to Oppenheimer creating the atom bomb. It can be used for good or evil.

And I think that we can judge him and we can make him a big deal, but I don't think much of his theology in terms of honoring God. That's what I think. Do you think he's in the kingdom above? I think he has an open door to him to come in. Absolutely. And I think if he was any kind of lover of truth or God, he would have fallen on his knees. And if he isn't, he's in this world.

I wonder. Setting up a kingdom for his people to come because it seemed like he got that ego megalomaniac of a, but I don't want to judge. I won't judge anybody. I wonder if, I wonder. because it seemed like he got that ego megalomaniac of a, but I don't wanna judge. I won't judge anybody. Hmm, I wonder if, I wonder.

All right. All right, thanks everyone for watching. We tune in next week. We will talk about this holy lust thing. Holy lust. Decided for. Thanks guys. Thank you. We'll see you next time. Thanks for watching!