AI-generated summary
Central Claim: The Yeshuan Network argues that Scripture reveals a biblical transition from a 2,000-year model of organized, objective, denominational religion to an emerging model of subjective, individual faith centered on personal relationship with God outside institutional structures.
Biblical Basis: The hosts claim contextual analysis of Scripture from Genesis to Revelation supports this progression, tracing patterns from the Law of Moses through the present age. They assert their conclusions derive from biblical study rather than denominational interpretation.
Yeshuan Perspective: This reflects fulfilled eschatology applied to religious practice: the institutional age has "ended," and believers should now prioritize direct God-people relationships rather than religious mediation. The theology advocates "flipping the order" from God-religion-people to God-people-religion, where individuals use religion as a tool rather than submit to institutional authority.
Practical Application: The Yeshuan leadership program trains individuals to "love God and love others" independently within their personal contexts, emphasizing subjective spiritual growth over denominational compliance.
Open Transcript
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I'M SINCERELY YOURS AND FAITH, LOVE, AND
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>> Hey guys, it is Delaney and Sean. We are
here with Heart of the Matter and uh so
grateful that you have gathered with us.
>> Welcome. It's Heart of the Matter
Epiphany. This is the eighth episode and
um just want to announce that this
Sunday, March 8th, we have the
introduction meeting to our third annual
Yeshuan leadership program. So if you
want to uh just get some information on
it, you don't have to be committed to
it. You're welcome to join us. Um email
me delaney yesuins.faith or contact us
through the app, the Yeshuan app if you
want to join.
>> We have a pretty good group already.
Yeah, there's a Yeah, there's I think
maybe 12 people that are going to
>> be doing it this year.
>> Our third install. So, we've had and and
the people in the previous they they uh
create our think tank.
>> Yeah. So, that's the whole point of the
Yeshuan's app. We have If you hear
construction in the background, sorry.
>> All hell breaks loose the minute we turn
the camera on. Um uh the point of
Yeshuan's app is to both host all the
content that we've made, but especially
encourage people to go through the
Yeshuan education system, which teaches
biblical fulfillment. Then it goes
through the four L's and four traits on
spiritual growth outside of organized
religion. And then it gets deep into
leadership training um which is really a
program that helps people
uh figure out how to love God and love
others on their own out in their own
religious settings um and really face
the context of their individual lives
and how to do that best. And then once
you do that, you become part of the
Yeshuan think tank which is like our
board that we meet with quarterly uh to
consult with on the direction of the
ministry.
>> Yeah. And these are salt of the earth
souls who uh they think for themselves.
They do their own research and they
believe as they are led and we love them
to death.
>> Yep.
>> Also this Sunday, March 8th, we have a
afternoon call-in show. Starts at 2 to
3. But this Sunday, uh, we are going to
open our call-in show up to you guys to
tune in as we host Ratio Christie. This
is our sixth or seventh time that we've
done this. And, uh, students from all
over the place come in under the title
of Ratio Christiey's uh, campus outreach
to kids and we talk about their
apologetic work to the LDS. That's why
they're in town. And so their leader, he
stops off and he brings them to us.
usually first and we eviscerate them
with all of our stuff and then they
leave hating us, reinforce that their
views are correct and then they go and
attack the Mormons. [laughter]
>> That is demonstrated on social media as
the one like slightly viral clip we have
is a is from one of those exchanges.
People just hate it.
>> Yeah.
>> They hate it. And by the way,
>> or they love it. It's really it. Sorry,
I don't mean just hate. It's both. So
>> yeah, no, it's good.
>> See what you think.
>> And uh when I say they attack the
Mormons, they are becoming more savvy on
how to do it without the attack.
>> Yeah, but when you point blank ask them
are they going to hell, they all raise
their hand. That's the
>> I was just going to say that. That is
exactly the point that they can be nice
and everything else in their approach,
but if they believe they're going to
hell.
>> Yeah.
>> When it when we are supposedly mean in
person, but believe they're going to
heaven. Yeah.
>> So, which one is worse?
>> The Mormons hate us cuz they say you're
you're against us. You're And we say
you're okay.
>> Yeah.
>> Like challenge you to your face. I don't
know which one's worse.
>> Yeah. To be to be conniving and pretend
or to be straight up. And I think
straight up's better for the individual
and worse for um your reputation in the
world.
>> I do think so. I think that's been your
your uh challenge throughout your life.
So anyway, tonight is called 45
biblically supported reasons organized
religion is over and our family wants to
offer you a summary of what we've
discovered from a contextual analysis
of the Bible. Real quick though, did we
say how to watch how to tune into that
Ratio Christie thing?
>> No, I don't know how.
>> Sorry about that. You can uh live stream
it on either of our YouTube channels,
Heart of the Matter or Yeshu. You can
watch out on the app. Uh all sorts of
things. If you're We recommend you sign
up for our app. Um because that's how
you'll be in touch with what we're
doing. It's not that we spam you or
anything, but we just send you
notifications of things going on because
there's always something going on. Go to
yesu.faith if you want to be in
communication. Okay.
>> Yeah.
>> Tonight.
>> Wait, I was going to say something else
>> and people can to sign in for questions.
>> Yeah. If you live stream, you'll see on
the screen how to submit your questions,
uh, if you want to do that.
>> And then one final thing coming up this
Sunday is we're starting in on a second
series in our 10:00 verse by verse. It's
not verse by verse anymore. We call it
Sunday schooled. And uh, we
>> still doing verse by verse though.
>> Yeah, we still do verse by verse on
Matthew at 8 a.m. through Matthew.
>> And but on the Sunday schooled, we're
going more topically. And I'm starting
in on a It's like
>> I don't know if you hear the noise in
the background, but it's
>> They've never been louder in the history
of being in this building. They've never
been louder until we decide to start
taping. Hand to God. I swear it's dark
forces that that get to work in people.
But uh we're going to start in on a new
series. It's going to last for quite a
while. And it's going to be on like a
really solid throughline of the
philosophy of the Bible.
>> Awesome.
>> Yeah,
>> that will maybe be somewhat articulated
tonight as well.
>> It will be well it will be from a
different perspective and I'm glad for
that. Go ahead. Uh Delane, we know that,
you know, our we have put in our family,
and I say our family because I've done
it, but we have all done it to some
extent or another, a lot of time and
research to find out what the heck is
really something the Bible stands on,
teaches clearly
without any denominational arm twisting
on our part. We don't listen to what
anyone says. We listen to what it says.
and what Delaney taught us a while ago
in the through line of scripture from
Genesis to Revelation. How does it lay
out what is really happening now in the
world? And that's what we want to talk
about.
>> All right. So, we have a side byside
chart we're going to look at and just
consider what we're saying um in the in
that we can confidently
uh defend or articulate why we're
teaching this. We know that there are
other perspectives, but we have a really
strong backing for all these different
positions we're going to go through. Um
we're going to work through each set of
boxes from the left to right together.
And like we always say, don't trust us,
but test it and see what your findings
produce.
>> And you know, before we embark on this,
just know that if your preference is to
be Catholic, Mormon, Baptist, whatever,
>> we say fine.
>> Yeah. We just think that if you
understood what we've discovered and can
prove through the Bible, it might help
you in that thing you choose to do
because it will clarify a lot of things
that the churches and pastors cannot
make sense of.
>> Yeah. The goal of Yeshuins is to flip
the order. If it's God, religion, and
then people right now, we want to flip
the order so it's God, people, and then
religion. And people use religion to
their at their disposal. Um
not getting getting rid of it completely
necessarily.
>> So uh Delaney said we're going to work
from the left to the right in box one.
It's the past 2,000 years and then we're
going to below in the column to the
right the next 2,000 years. That's what
we are really trying to summarize here
of what we think the Bible has clearly
pointed out.
>> All right. In the past 2,000 years, you
can find how we describe it below that
uh line on the left side and it says
it's traditional, it's objective. This
is the truth. You believe this, you do
that. It's denominational and it's
religious. M
>> yeah that is what has existed and we see
it in all the different expressions from
the smallest to the biggest right.
>> Mhm.
>> All right. And so Delaney tell us what
is the next 2,000 years? What should it
represent? Actually what should it have
represented from the back 2,000 years
ago but we just weren't ready for that.
>> Yeah. I was going to ask if is it just
the last 2,000 years or the all time
before that as well since the law of
Moses? I think since the law of Moses
definitely during that time it was
certainly number two uh left side it was
certainly law it was certainly material
it was organized it was denominational
certainly that's the biblical model uh
even back into when Moses got the law
>> right watch the first episode of
Epiphany and you'll you'll see that we
use the diagram in the background where
the red is the law of Moses that's that
time the orange is the time of Christ.
The yellow is the
>> religion since which is what the column
on the left is the past 2,000 years like
you're talking about.
>> Now we hope to have a sharp divide and
move into the purple age which is the
next 2,000 years and our work is trying
to bring us into that age and articulate
what that age is.
Yeah. And in box two, we describe it
generally as being
>> fulfilled, subjective,
relation, relational,
um, via the spirit of the victorious
Christ.
>> Yeah. We maintain that the victory
Christ had over everything that's in
that Bible, everything that's written,
his victory has brought us into a place
where all human beings have the spirit
of the victorious Christ in them.
Doesn't mean they receive it or pursue
it, but we believe that all men like the
Quakers believe this have the light of
Christ in there. And that accords with
the first chapter of John that he is the
light that came into all men. And we
believe that that is the case today
because it is that way. That makes the
faith subjective
>> because every individual has Christ in
them telling them what they should seek
and believe and do versus an
institution, a brickandmortar, a
denominational dogmatically telling them
we believe in box two.
>> Yeah. There's a weird thing with this
perspective because
it's both supported as if it should have
happened since Christ should have been
that way. like Christ made religion
subjective but also it's emphasized
because it's the reality of today anyway
like
>> I think it's really rational that we you
and yes in our family see religion as
already doing that like it's already we
all already have our own perspective so
how do we work with religion from now on
>> better given that condition
>> right and Delane's second point there
makes so much sense because irrespective
of what the Bible message says, what
should have been,
>> God works through what we're ready for.
>> Yeah.
>> And we don't think in the past 2,000
years anybody could have really said,
"Let's do this new thing now because the
world wasn't ready for it."
>> So, it's like this thing that Christ
came for, the world's finally ready for,
>> right?
>> In a way.
>> Yeah. And that's why a thing that we
kind of stand on is that before Christ,
everything has been put under his feet.
>> But after Christ, God has allowed all
things because he works in harmony with
what we want and do as people and what
we can handle and what we can't. And all
of that's at play in his hand. And we
don't think that this could have been
received maybe 150 years ago. We think,
like Delaney said, now it's ready. And
we will explain why. All right.
>> So, looking to the past 2,000 years, who
are the participants of the traditional
objective religion? You know it. Roman
Catholicism, Orthodoxies, Anglican,
Lutheran, Protestant, Restorationist,
and all other brickandmortar
denominational expressions that are
Christ affirming. We say that are Christ
affirming for the simple reason that
this is a Christ centered approach. He
had the victory. So, we include him in
all that. Does it mean that the Jews and
the Muslims and the others who don't
affirm Christ as Lord and Savior uh
don't belong? No. They belong to our
solution. They belong because the spirit
of Christ is in all men.
>> So every individual choosing to receive
and believe in Christ in them whether
they know him by name or on or his
anything about him is irrelevant. If
they seek to live in them and live
directly by that spirit which produces
love, they we believe are his.
>> Okay? That's why we don't make a deal
about Mormons who have the quote unquote
wrong Jesus, wrong God, wrong gospel if
they have the spirit of Christ in them.
They are just as good before God as
anybody else.
>> Right? And it's why we can we also say
it's relevant to other religions now is
that there might be individuals in other
religions that have this and have and
live by the spirit of Christ and don't
know it's the spirit of Christ. So they
are doing it right without the on or the
ontological knowledge. Correct.
>> Yeah.
>> Exactly. And you know the thing about
that point is that's that this solves
the question if if pe if religious
Christian evangelicals and ardent
Mormons are sincere and Catholics. Have
you ever wondered why there's so many
people in different faiths that are so
good and nice and kind and peaceful and
and they're so wonderful to be around?
How come Christians can't be more like
them? They have the spirit of Christ
>> and that's why we don't draw
denominational lines. M yeah
separating the spirit of Christ from
Christianity.
>> Yeah.
>> And allowing it to be wherever it is.
>> That's what we are talking about you
guys. That is what we are offering for
you to consider and to bring into your
own walk with God rather than join some
religion. You don't join us. We are just
proposing what we have discovered as a
family. So, I'm going to cover the first
box underneath uh the past 2,000 years.
And we know that it was law-ab.
And it's very masculine. Going back to
the Old Testament, very bloody, full of
warfare, dos and don'ts. God is mad at
you. You're in trouble. Very, very, very
material. Everything that the nation of
Israel was about was material. But we're
talking about the last 2,000 years.
>> Last 2,000 years. Yeah, that's what
we're talking about.
>> Yeah. Oh, okay. And
>> what we propose, Delaney is going to
cover that what we are saying should
come in now that we're ready for it.
>> Well, the hope is to see that Christ's
answer to the relig masculine religion
before him was a more feminine approach,
which was uh feminine, not female. um in
that it's grace centered and spiritual
and relationship oriented rather than um
obedienceoriented
and uh violent, right?
>> So, uh hopefully we're moving into a
more loving approach um in the next age.
>> And we see that ethic that she calls
feminine, not female, as being uh
lifegiving. The law kills. Paul said,
uh, the Old Testament was about killing.
You know, Christ brings lifegiving.
That's what women do. So, that's why we
call it the feminine. And the traits
that Christ brought are very feminine in
nature, not female. It's good for a man
to be meek and mild and humble and
patient and kind and long-suffering and
giving uh like a good woman. That's what
a Christian man would be. So, we need to
get rid of the masculine material. This
is the law idea because it's over and
Christ fulfilled it.
>> All right.
>> All right. The next one is the objective
doctrinal and practical demands of the
last 2,000 years.
>> Yeah. And this should be a marketked
difference between what we propose
because if the faith is now subjective
and it's based off the individual's
choice on what and how to believe and
how to live that it's between them and
God. There's no need for any institution
to hand down objective doctrinal and
practical demands on how to please God.
But if we go to that list, Roman
Catholics or Protestants, we can see
what their objective demands are.
>> Yeah. And we say those are over.
>> That no longer does a person need to
have any material objective demands
placed upon them. That includes not even
knowing the name of Jibus
>> or calling out to him and asking him to
receive. Maybe that's important for you
internally. He's already there. To call
out and recognize him is fine. But man,
we have to get away from the sub uh the
objective demands. Why? Because the
subjective is the reality.
>> So the objective idea that we still see
probably at its most extreme today is
people
believing that there's a God and
thinking that that God can be understood
objectively through the Bible. And so
they I'm kind of asking you through
these statements but um so they once
they come to find that then they go out
and argue for it and correct others in
that name.
>> Our idea is that is not that the
existence of an objective god is
subjective. It's that we believe that
there's a god that does that has a
reality and that that's not possible to
know collectively,
>> right?
>> Uh through the Bible,
>> right?
>> Because we're too that Bible's not for
us. We're too far removed from it. Uh
that the spirit of Christ is in each
individual. So the subjectivity that
we're arguing for is in how someone
relates to God materially. Is that
correct?
>> Yeah. And for additional reasons that
you uh didn't mention, but I know you
know, and that's also because we're all
different. We're different people. We've
grown up in different places, different
parents, different sets of rules and
laws. We have different consciences.
>> For some things I have no conscience
against and some things I do. And and
Delaney's different.
>> Yeah.
>> And then the fact of the matter, the
reality is that's how we are anyway. You
take any collective group, unless
they're a brainwashed cult,
>> and you say, "We believe this.
>> Everybody in there is going to filter
that through their age, gender,
experience, life, and they're going to
decide what that means to them and if
they accept it or not."
>> That's so it's already subjective. Yeah.
>> And we all die alone and go to God and
subjectively are assessed by him, quote
unquote. So this subjective demand that
this must be is not a reality. It's it
hasn't been a reality for thousands of
years.
>> Yeah. It's and that that fact that's
it's that same duality where like it was
a reality in Christ time but society
wasn't able to like universally see that
reality until now. and whatever's
happened culturally, we're like it's
broken open the ability for us to see
the system doesn't work anymore for a
lot of things, but most especially for
faith.
>> Yeah.
>> And like so if you look culturally back
to the 50s, people can say church works.
Our family gets up and goes and we're
all really and look at society, it's
working. Yeah.
>> It's not working anymore.
>> Yeah. and the the desperate attempts for
religion to make it work again, make
America great again, whatever it is.
It's like a reversion back to something
that won't exist anymore. It's not
possible.
>> Yeah. And I love the fact that you
brought that up, Delaney, because um you
know, if you look today at a resurgence
of masculine, law-abiding, objectively
demanded religion, you find it in the
extreme groups. uh fundamentalist uh I
mean it's like bombs are going off now.
Fundamentalist Islam, fundamentalist
Mormons, fundamentalist uh Calvinists.
>> Yes.
>> All three of those groups are hearkening
back to the old way because they think
that's how we're going to govern the
world. And
>> literally arguing for women to have
their vote repealed.
>> Women to shut up in church. Women to be
put to death for an abortion. It's all
putting women. Women aren't the problem
here, you know? I mean, they contribute
to the problem, but men are the original
source of the problem, and they're the
ones who need to lead their families in
love like Christ loved the church and
get away from all this masculine
religion. But our society is going back
to this model. And we are telling you
it's not going to work. It's never
worked. And that is a reversion back to
pure m pat matriarchy. Yeah, it it might
have worked teologically, but it didn't
work for what Christ came to do
originally.
>> And that's such an important point
because in our world, we can do things
that work,
>> but it doesn't make them right.
>> Yeah, that's the thing I think. Uh yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. I don't know.
>> I mean, I hate to, this isn't political,
but I had a conversation with somebody
who said, "What exactly is the problem?"
Uh, and I'm not saying I know the
problem, but what exactly is the
perceived problem with Donald Trump?
>> And they said, "Isn't it good that we do
want people who come into the country
illegally and don't go through all the
hoops for them to do that?"
>> And my response is, "That is a good
thing. We should do that, you know,
because that's how we survive and keep
order in our country."
>> But it's the method by which we're doing
it that calls in other people into
question.
>> So, it's not the thing in of itself
that's wrong. It's the method of doing
it. And that's our problem with most
religion today. It's their method.
>> Yeah. And how I just ask anyone that's
>> arguing for material religion to have a
resurgence. I really want to know how
they're going to make that happen
because the how is going to be by like
tying someone up and forcing them to be
a part of it. That's the only way it's
going to happen.
>> So that comes through shame and guilt
and law. So clearly it doesn't work.
>> It does not work.
>> That's why that's why we're saying it
doesn't work anymore. I think there was
a time where
>> uh society understood women in a certain
way so it did work but today we don't so
it doesn't work anymore. Like that's we
have to change.
>> Yeah. And this is fundamental to our
family's view of God in that out of love
he changes with his human creations.
>> So that Yeah. We could talk about this
for so long. We should keep going
through the list. But that's what's so
blasphemous to people, I think, is this
suggestion that God changes, right?
>> But it's not that God changes. It's that
Christ finished the work and God is
working
>> at this miraculous individual scale with
each person for a large unchanging goal.
Yeah. like that. We have no concept to
Yeah. Like we can't say what that is.
>> Yeah. I mean, impossible. And yet we
try.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> It's not possible to say what the
collective goal of God is.
>> My goodness.
These are improvements. Number six, and
by the way, we might only get through 10
of these [laughter] and then we can uh
have a show for the next three weeks.
>> Yeah, I guess so. But
>> number six is religious authority of men
demanding doctrines and dogmas were in
place. We've kind of covered that. But
the important thing is in that sense the
authority
>> of men.
>> And I personally, I don't know if Delany
has a problem with it, but I personally
don't see anybody who has a real,
believable, reasonable, biblical,
logical link to human beings having any
authority.
>> Yeah.
>> Over others. There's
that is actually probably the worst part
of it is that as a person claiming that
they have authority and you've been in
touch with that because of your
resistance to someone telling you that
they're between you and God. Um I
there's another way to see it too that's
like
the like you're saying the doctrines and
dogmas are a vehicle for a a person or
an entity like a denomination to have
power over people like as a collective
and then men
put themselves in association with that
collective to feel powerful and are
proud and yeah it's just
>> and we see historical evidence for what
she just said uh by looking at the
establishment of the creeds where there
was an idea that there's a god and there
was his son and men decided listen we
need to codify codify this so that we
aren't fighting each other and we can
use our imperialistic natures to
dominate the world through Christianity
that's that's the banner that uh
Constantine saw on the heavens through
Christ you will have victory on this
earth and so they started
>> that's what it said,
>> "Yeah, he had a vision of a banner in
heaven and he said, "You will win
through this."
>> And so, here we start to establish codes
for how to believe. And the Trinity was
one of them, as well as eternal
punishment and all these other things
that are not true in the faith today.
>> Yeah. I've never really sat and thought
about what
what was the motivation for a group of
men to get together and decide on codes
for faith.
>> Yeah.
>> Like what what was going on in the
world? Why did they feel the need? What
is there a way that there could have
been like a good motivation out of it?
>> Well, God could have used it for good to
get us through to the point where he
keeps unfolding things. Sure. men, you
know, he's like, "Okay, if you're going
to do that, let's do this." Now, I don't
know. But bottom line is men when they
see chaos or threats to what they
believe
>> is headed their way, they fortify
themselves through. And so Aryan came
along and he said, "Yeah, Jesus wasn't
God."
>> And they said, "No, no, no. Jesus was
God. We need Jesus to lead us. Let's
codify who he was." and they through the
Holy Spirit and the Father all in that
thing called the Trinity.
>> That's what's going on will always go on
is that um
>> is that it's a need for control. It's a
need for control.
>> Yeah. And so, and that need for control
perhaps comes from a good place in the
hearts of these men where they want God
to be in the world and everybody to know
him and but it's antithetical because a
it has to come by force. But
b they what you your point which it took
me so long to understand is that why
isn't God more powerful? like why do you
have to establish that control on earth?
Why can't God do that in individual's
hearts?
>> And
>> even if Aryan leads people astray or
whatever, why can't God come in and fix
that?
>> Because men think they need to intercede
for him
>> instead of believing what Christ said
and that the spirit goes where it wants
and so are those who follow it.
>> You know, why don't pastors who teach
God will do everything for you believe
that?
>> Instead, they do everything to show they
need to do things. We are fully on the
side of trusting God with everything and
not worrying about even dogma,
doctrines, practices. We say Christ has
done it. We trust him. Whatever happens
happens.
>> Wow.
>> All right.
>> Warped the more we talk about it.
>> Oh, it just keeps getting
>> warped. [laughter]
>> And then the the I'll read this one. the
past 2,000 years has been primarily
collective and primarily participative.
>> Uh meaning that if you're a Catholic
that you gather with other Catholics and
you do what other Catholics have decided
it's important to do. And that's why
when we start when we side by side put
religions on earth and compare them, we
say Mormonism is the best because in
terms of man-made religion doing what is
going to collectively use human power to
do things, Mormonism beats uh beats
everybody. Yeah,
>> it does.
>> Yeah. But that doesn't make it true.
>> Again, Catholics seem to have a pretty
strong
>> They're pretty good on it, too.
>> Yeah. They do it without all that. They
do it with guilt and shame, but they do
it pretty well.
>> Yeah. It's very prevalent. Yeah.
Clearly.
>> Yeah. Um so, and so we just say there's
no religious authority, but the reigning
spirit of Christ promoting faith and
agape love. And it's primarily the faith
is primarily independent.
>> It's between the individual and God,
nobody else. And it's informationbased,
which we're going to get to in the next
one, but that's important for us to help
you know. It's not religiously practiced
and based. It's educationally presented.
>> Can I ask a clarification?
Uh
so when we talk about religious then
religious means that God is being
represented
in a thing like
um
because we think that if some like the
institution can exist and do things for
people in all the ways that they already
do but the fact that they claim God is
the problem and that's what's religious.
Is that right?
>> Um to me
the religious tie into God that churches
make is what makes all the other things
they do religious.
>> Okay.
>> Okay.
>> All the other things they do could not
be religious if they didn't
>> if they didn't have God with God. Right.
Right.
>> We are trying to say religion is in
opposition to God. that yes, God will
allow you to participate with religions
because we're human and we like to
gather and collect with like-minded
people, but the reality is that
collective uh association is not getting
you into a relationship or the kingdom.
And that is how religion using his name
messes with people.
>> You know, it really is more about the
individual
whether they're in a religion or not.
and and and that's why it's hard for me
to even call what we're doing religious
>> because I just don't see any of the uh
associations present.
>> Right. So, and that's why there's a
Mormon there's two Mormons in the same
ward going to the same church and one's
religious and one isn't. Yeah.
>> Because one puts that church between
>> them and God and one just uses that
church. That's right.
>> And relates to God on their own.
>> That's right. That's the whole thing.
>> Yeah.
>> That's what religion religion is
putting.
>> It's idolatry. It's putting that
material in association with God that
isn't. Is that right?
>> Yeah. Good point. Yeah.
>> And that's why we say there are good
Mormon people who are just as close to
God as a good Catholic or anybody else.
>> So then the next point where the past
2,000 years have been religious. What
should the next 2,000 years be? I
suggest, Delaney suggests, our family
suggests that the best way to approach
all of these things is through uh not
religious education, but um biblical
education of all God has done and then
what that means to us today. Educate
yourself on what the text actually says.
You choose how you want to see it and
believe it and go forward on your own.
>> Right? So there's a way that a a Mormon
going to their church right now actually
sees it as education. Yeah. And that's
correct.
>> Yeah.
>> Like the Mormon church could just be
doing education. If you're seeing it as
religious education or whatever, like
telling you how God's doing X, Y, and Z,
then it's a problem. But
>> so that's that's the defination
here is gaining information and then
taking the responsibility yourself to
figure out what to do with it
>> rather than someone else
>> giving you information and telling you
God wants you to do this.
>> Exactly. And that's why we say education
is the future for the faith.
>> It is not religious practice because
>> of everything you just said
>> and education isn't a formal thing. It's
not M divs and all that. It's it's
learning. It's like going out in the
world when you go to a fast food
restaurant and observing the person in
front of you. That's a form of education
rather than it's actively living rather
than passively living. Right.
>> Your if we were going to say religious
training is your life.
>> Yes.
>> Yes. That that's all your religious
training is. It's not. Well, I mean, if
we're going to use that term, your
>> I see. Yeah.
>> In in placement of doing what the church
says, your religion is the life you
live.
>> Yes.
>> Yeah. And not what someone else tells
you to do.
>> Yes.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. And in terms of that educational
thing, you know, we have spent uh quite
a few years, decades creating
educational content for people who want
to without religious affiliation and
affirmation and denomination hear what
we see the truth as in the throughine of
the Bible is in terms of all God has
done
>> so that you can then decide how you want
to live today.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. and go to and be a part of it.
Yes, you stop faith.
>> Yeah,
>> if you want.
>> If you want,
>> be a part.
>> And that's the other thing.
>> Challenge it. Challenge it. That's the
whole point.
>> Yeah. Challenge your faith. Go through
our verse by verse in Hebrews. Go listen
to I don't get the Bible through Hebrews
and and lay what we discover and talk
about there against what you've been
taught by your church
>> or any book that we've got there.
I just want to mention we had a comment
on our recent I don't get the Bible
Hebrews.
>> Oh.
>> Talking about how Hebrews dismantles
Mormon claims to authority. And someone
commented maybe our interpretation is
wrong. The Mormons go directly to God
for their interpretation. And it was
just the most interesting comment
because I'm like I think that's what
we're trying to argue that you do. But
so
>> no, they go directly to their brethren
for the interpretation
>> or Joseph or whole bunch of other
>> other things. The manual what the
doctrine is that what a big joke that
comment was.
>> Yeah, it was kind of surreal to read
that.
>> And you know, just while we're just
sitting here on this, I just want to say
I firmly believe that everyone gets what
they want. You know, a Mormon who wrote
that comment is getting what he or she
wants. That's what they see in
Mormonism. That's what they believe.
They can have it.
>> But the scripture does say that God is
looking for those who diligently seek
him in spirit and truth. And he doesn't
make his truths readily apparent.
>> They have to be sought for. So if you
want to be a Catholic who never opens
the Bible or a Mormon who only listens
to their prophets or any of that, you
can. God has given you life. He sent his
son to save you. Fine. But we're here to
educate you on what the thing really
says.
>> All right. Next one about public
worship. How is it conducted now then
and now? Uh well, public worship and
this is a big divider among all
religious folks is is typically broken
up in terms of um your prayers,
>> public prayers that you give with the
group, the music that you sing to and um
the service that you give in terms of
voluntary
uh service or money. Those are the ways
that the religions codified have taken
us worship in the faith and they have
said this is how you can worship people
who come to us.
>> We pray together, we sing together, we
serve and give and that's our service to
God through the institution. But I would
suggest that God has given his spirit of
his son in you to individually choose
when and how to worship. Meaning how you
pray, meaning if you sing and the music
you listen to to worship God through it.
I worship God through punk. I I can
barely worship God through most modern
Christian music. And this is something
that has broken me forward to try to see
it in a different way because the school
of ministry I went to, all the guys are
just rocking out to this really horrible
music.
>> And I just sat there thinking I can't
relate to God through this.
>> So we I realized that it's through our
preferential music, you know, it might
for someone might be shopan or or it
might be rap. It touches them
emotionally and it leads their thoughts
to God that it should be that liberal
instead of worship being when you talk
about baby Jesus in the manger, you
know.
>> Yeah. Worship that it it seems as though
the past 2,000 years that people think
worship is a collective act. Yeah.
>> I think maybe that's the problem. Yeah.
>> Is it? What is the what is the um
biblical justification for collective
worship? Well, the collective worship is
what the Jews did. They would have
convocations. They'd have agre they'd
have holidays and they would all get
together very very much the model for
organized religion today. And again, the
Mormons do it well,
>> you know, and the orthodoxies do it
well. They have a lot of feasts, a lot
of different things. But when the
scripture in other places lays it out
that all the material is done and Christ
finished that approach to him and now it
comes from the heart of the individual.
We maintain that an individual who's
never stepped in church to sing that
they can worship him in spirit and truth
according to how they want to give, how
they want to serve, how they want to
pray, and whatever music inspires them
to think of God first and foremost. This
breaks it outside of what all the
religious stuff has been.
>> I have friends who have said to me that
Christianity is inherently a social
uh
faith because it requires two people
like it there's always another person
that needs love like it requires other
people to
>> cannot disagree with that in terms of
trying to codify the faith on earth.
>> Yeah. But the application of that to
them is you go to church and you worship
together. Like it's just the opposite
where it's like to us the collective
part of it is
or the social part of it is that you go
out into the world and act that faith
out. It's not an insular worship where
the collectivity is in the worship. It's
the collectivity in the
>> right
>> uh manifestation of their faith. Yeah.
Would you say?
>> Yeah, I would say that. And and the
reason I say that in addition to what
you've said, Delaney, is that um when
you get in a collective, then the
heartfelt
things that a person wants to do have to
be truncated to what have to be
sublimated to what the group does.
>> Okay? And so therefore, there's a
phoniness and a disingenuousness
in the collective because everyone's
doing it. How many of them really fa
believe that or feel that?
>> Peer pressure to to do
>> peer pressure giving your worship is it
is it voluntary or do you give because
the plate is passed in front of you. We
maintain that because Christ and the the
veil was written too
>> and God said through that act there is
no separation between me and you anymore
>> that every individual should be free to
worship as they're inclined as they're
led in whatever way they want. Now if it
is in a collective setting go ahead.
>> Yeah. But I would be very careful about
collectivity when it comes to you
thinking you're justifying yourself
before God.
>> And to someone who want like I think
mostly they want community. People want
the feeling of being around others. It
it gets lonely like it's understandable.
What do you say to that? I say fine, you
know, but there are other things where I
think you could be more effectively used
in the with the spirit of Christ in you
than a community of like-minded
believers. Because in that, all you're
doing is patting each other on the back
of the great things that you do. Imagine
you establishing your community as a
yeshuan in a bowling league of people
who smoke, drink, and swear. and you go
in there and you shine a light of him
with non-judgment, non-shame, non-g
guilt, not sing my music. This is what
we're trying to say is the solution to
the problem of religion today.
>> And we're at the tail end of it because
like you pointed out in a uh previous
point, the the
proprietary doctrine owned by the church
now is the place where people go to get
filled up. Yeah. in order to go out and
live their lives and show love. Everyone
wants needs this time to go get filled
up. So they go to church
>> when they could get filled up by just
reading the word themselves and then
going out and actually learning rather
than
>> other people filling you up.
>> Yeah. and taking your pocketbook with an
extra 20 in it and not thinking that you
got to give it to the church so the
pastor can fulfill his dream. Yes. But
you have a neighbor who is hurting and
you have the extra. You give it to your
neighbor directly.
>> Yeah.
>> This is what we're trying to say is the
future of the faith in this world
because the collective, what have they
done with all this collective stuff?
They've abused it.
>> Yeah.
>> And they've hurt other people. They've
molested them. They've ostracized them.
They haven't fed the poor. They've built
up uh empires around themselves. It's
all there if you look at it. This this
discussion is really good.
>> Yeah,
>> this is really How far are we in in
time?
>> Really helpful. Um you don't know.
>> I do. We have probably like five minutes
to
>> All right, we'll go a couple more and
then we will continue on this with part
two next week. But uh we just finished
off on talking about private worship in
spirit and truth. You know, that's what
God wants. He wants us to worship him in
spirit and truth. So when I
>> personally
>> personally individually when I read that
I said I am not worshiping him in truth
when I sing a song I hate
>> no or like looking at someone else and
how their hands are raised and feeling
like I should be doing that. Like
>> none of that is about truth about other
people. It's giving because everyone in
the row is looking at you, you know, and
so you do the old fake and drop, you
know, it's this is how religion works
against what God seeks. And that's the
authentic heart.
>> So the next one is um what is the next
one?
>> Through priesthoods, altars,
authorities, rights, rituals, demands of
allegiance.
>> Yeah, this is like the last 2,000 years
have been in religion. And what should
it be in the next age? Uh you know you
guys if you read the through line of
scripture uh you cannot get around you
can't get around
the fact that God emphatically
wanted the nation of Israel wanted Adam
and Eve and wanted everybody thereafter
to worship him and him alone and serve
no other no other. Okay. And in the past
2,000 years, men doing what they should
not have probably done have I they have
turned intermediaries
into idols [snorts] because it's through
the intermediaries that human beings
think of themselves as relating directly
to God and they're not.
So a priesthood, did you know in the
apostolic record the priesthood is only
in reference to what was existed in the
Old Testament. The word priests is only
in reference to that. It's never about
people who follow Christ. Never. Because
we are a he is our high priest. So you
don't have a priesthood. I hear Mormons
when I was LDS talk about so grateful
for the priesthood. My God, I want to
swear right now.
so grateful for the priesthood.
>> It's unreal the idol that that freaking
thing is. As well as I'm so grateful
that our bishop has the authority. He
has no authority. God's the authority.
Or altars in the Catholic Church and and
and and the Bible.
>> I mean, evangelicals worship the Bible.
We have these kids come in, they open
their Bible, and they're just like, they
can't even look and think and talk
through the spirit within them. They're
looking through the Bible to justify it.
That thing is an idol
>> and it is not the word of God. Do I mean
it contains the word of God? I do. Is it
is not the word of God. Is not. Watch
our teaching on
Matthew. Oh, last week.
>> Yeah.
>> On the Yeshua. And then I'm sorry it's
it's my pet peeve, but anytime you have
a ritual,
>> anytime you say people say, "Are you a
Christian?" Well, I was baptized.
>> Oh god, it's just like, wow, do you
really think that God cares? And you
know, demands of allegiance.
>> Yeah. I'm a Catholic. I'm a Mormon. I'm
a Baptist. You are none of those things.
You are either his or you're not. So
that's idolatry.
>> Yep.
>> Yeah. Um, and what should it be if all
those things are removed?
>> Direct
by the spirit responsibility to God
alone.
>> That's how I say I'm a Christian
anarchist,
>> not secular anarchy. God alone directly.
And that is in and through his son who
is God. So you don't even have to make
that qualifier. God alone.
>> No other inter intermediary. Whatever
you think about most, give your most
time and attention to, uh, honor, serve,
work for, try to impress, that's your
God.
>> And if it's any of those things that we
just mentioned, you're an idoltor.
>> I'm not saying he's going to punish you
because Christ gets the human need to
have material things that we love. But I
I can't emphasize more the import of no
gods before him.
>> Do we have time to move or or no?
>> Uh, let's do this last one. static and
unmovable.
>> That is the past 2,000 years.
>> Even though it did change over those
years, the perception of what they were
doing was that they were finding this
fixed.
>> Yeah.
>> They don't see that it changed. Except
the Catholics think they didn't change.
Except they didn't exist
>> until
you come from change in the first place.
>> Yeah. And the Protestants, you know,
they have no right for to have rebelled
against the Catholic unchangeable
church, but they did. And Martin Luther
authority broke from them. Orthodoxy in
1054 broke from the Catholic Church
without authority. So they stop the
unity of the faith that Christ preached
just by breaking off and starting a new
approach that they think is better. So
they don't have authority either. And
all the ones that hearken back to the
early church petristic fathers they lack
authority. Mormonism is fictional. I was
visited by a ghost. Uh you know fully
lacks authority. There is no authority.
Any man who stands above you. Let me
tell you something. They're a sinner.
>> They are fully a sinner in every way uh
shape or form that the flesh if eat of
it doesn't do. It's in their nature. We
look to God alone through the spirit of
Christ that's victorious in us. And we
always see ourselves as defective.
Anybody in a pew looking up at this
should have that. And anybody in any
other church should say, "I listen to
him or her as a teacher. I'll consider
what they have to say." But they are not
any sort of intermediary. None.
>> And as more and more people embrace what
we're talking about, we will start to
see this world and the faith change.
Um,
yeah.
>> Okay.
>> I think I think we should wrap it on
that. That was a good end note.
>> We're wrapping on that one and we will
uh catch up with you next week.
>> Continuing this this chart
>> this chart.
>> This is really good. I really liked
this.
>> Me, too. Thank you.
>> All right. We'll see you next time.
>> [music]
>> Please
[music]
hang it down.
Heat. Heat. [music]