Faithful LDS Experience Less Pain

Faithful LDS Experience Less Pain | Heart of the Matter EPIPHANY

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Subtitles by fignyafsyakaya Subtitles by fignyafsyakaya Subtitles by fignyafsyakaya Subtitles by fignyafsyakaya Subtitles by fignyafsyakaya Subtitles by fignyafsyakaya Subtitles by fignyafsyakaya Dear friend, if you wanna feel better Don't let the devil make you toss this letter If you've been crossed off by Hoodoo, voodoo, or wizard over wizard If you've been crossed off by Hoodoo, voodoo, or wizard over lizard You got family trouble, man trouble, woman trouble No life is a problem You're looking for a true friend or a true lover

Or if you were living undercover Well, I'm coming to your town to break it all down And help you with all of this I'm looking to help you find bliss One day, one way, can't miss I'm here to tear all the walls down. Doesn't matter if it's a large town or a small town. Just like Joshua and the fable rules of Jericho, I'm here to tear down the institution.

But you must tell seven friends. You must first bring seven friends. And don't be selfish and keep this all to yourself and don't eat shelfless. Hate is trying to take someone else's love for yourself. But I'm here to tell you that love is trying to help someone else. You need to see me right away so I can fix this up.

You need to see me right away. So I can fix this up Need to see me right away See me right away, so I can fix this up You need to see me right about now And if you are suffering a strange sickness Or someone is blocking up all of your success You need to see me right away so I can fix this Sound sincerely yours in faith, love and peace Your friend Archbishop Harold Holmes Hello Hello children of the corn! It is June 2nd, 2026. This is Heart of the Matter Epiphany, the seventh series of Heart of the Matter.

And the 22nd show this year. Wow, thank you for that. 22. We have been doing a lot in the ministry. We recently, this past Sunday, had a, I think the best exchange yet that you've had as yourself and as Sean the Baptist. Yeah, that we've had too. Yeah, we collectively, definitely. And that is accessible through YouTube. If you want, we recommend that you follow Meet Sean the Baptist. That's where we're going to start. And we'll sort of cross posts so people start to see stuff. But that's where a lot of the new stuff is going to start going

um a new channel that is focused on the sort of apologetic approach that you're getting into with sean the baptist yeah and it's a really good point because we have fortified our audience with all the established teachings and books and everything that's all there for the taking through the website. Now we're doing Boots on the Ground.

And so that's Sean the Baptist at Meet Sean the Baptist. And that's going to be kind of a focus until in the future when we're up and ready to start our school. Which we talked about last week on our last episode. Yeah. There is some improvements if you use our app we recommend you keep trying out the search engine there has been a lot of work on that in the last week that hopefully it helps refine the answers stay in contact with us as you find that something's not being answered correctly or whatever because we want to keep

refining that but I think it's made a lot of improvements I do too and if you have found yourself thinking what that answer doesn't make sense go back and retry like she said because I did that and uh night and day I don't know how it happens it's magic from her end it it takes like three days you know to change a line in my mind but it is a lot of work but she's doing it so that you guys can get to where you can get really concise answers to your questions yeah and then find the teachings that talk about that thing and actually hear the

context yeah um from why you talk about that yeah so that is available on the Yeshuans app. And it's also at, if you just go to our website, yeshuans.faith, there's a search bar and you can start working with it. Really had a good time with Ratio Christi. And we got a comment from... from Hayden in Down Under in Australia.

And he was stunned by the fact that we asked the question, okay, there is a Latter-day Saint who believes that Jesus was born of a virgin, lived a perfect life, died on a cross for the sins of the world, even though some of those things are shifty, and resurrected, which they believe, and that he is our Lord and there's no way to God but through him and his life and suffering. And they do all the Mormon stuff.

Will they go to hell? And we had seven kids say they're going to hell forever, to burn forever. That's what the history of religion and the mindsets of parents and everybody has done. It's taken us to that level where the mindlessness doesn't even account for anything else in the scripture it's just yeah and there's yeah like it makes me think because you made the point that like we're willing to side with a Calvinist who will stone babies.

I don't know what they actually, you said that there's stoning babies, stoning children. Well, he's stoned. If I said stoning children, I totally blew it. You said stoned children. I totally blew it. It's stoned women, right? No, it's, it's, uh, I, okay. Sometimes I say things and I mix my, I'm, I'm more and more, I mix up tents. I mix up places.

I mix it up. People groups. Yeah. So, and I catch myself every now and then. Some will say, watch this. I watch it. I'm like, Oh my God. Yeah. Yeah. Calvin said there is a stretch of babies, a mile long in hell. You did say that example. But I also said stoning babies. I thought he said stoning children, but maybe I'm wrong.

I thought there is stoning anyway. Okay. And by the way, Calvin's method of killing was burning people at the stake. Oh, all right. Thank you, Calvin. You know, Jesus says forgive and they're following Calvin's God. Yeah. That's a, that's the point is people are okay with the ontological agreement and not the spiritual one, even though the Mormons have the ontological agreement. It's like, yeah, it's really confusing, but we're getting to the root of it.

And we were talking about how Baptists, too, will prohibit smoking cigarettes. And yet we won't let the Mormons have their little peculiar things. The Christian argument in the discussion was that as long as they don't add on and i think the point you're trying to make is okay what do you add on yeah like because we all add on every other christian group that you're okay with adds on yes but the mormons add on and you're not that's right it's the hypocrisy and and i'm glad you caught that because they don't see themselves. It was like we had the man who was very respectful in the front. What are you guys here to do? And he said, put a rock in their shoe. And then I said, well, we want to put boulders in yours because he totally thought we have it all right.

have it all right i know it's so fascinating what religion does to people's minds yeah yeah i know really don't like it we put rocks in the shoes of people putting rocks in shoes i think that's how you we could summarize because it's like we want to put rocks in shoes too but not to people like who is that directed at You're really choosing the wrong target here. And it shows your hubris that you, you know, think, you know, everything.

And this that group was was pretty kind and docile. And but we think it's because of a few things we've altered to approach them. And I sincerely believe one of those things to say we believe the Bible from Genesis to Revelation as it's written with a few little errors of whatever but we essentially believe it and teach it yes but we say and and so that helped them be like okay yeah and it's hard because we hedge on saying that because it shouldn't matter right kind of it shouldn't matter if we are able to speak truth with them and that gets to Christ

or love or whatever what like clearly there are people that don't know the Bible aka all of them not hardly any of them even knew the Bible, but they were okay. But you need to know the Bible fully to be okay. Like it's so wild. You are starting, or maybe you've always seen these inconsistent patterns. Yeah.

It's just hard to figure out how to make the argument because we really don't think the Bible should be needed, but you have to say, I believe in the Bible for them to even start listening to you thinking. And I truly do believe it has principles that when read by the spirit are unavailable in other places. Yeah. Yeah. But you're right.

We live in a full age of fulfillment where someone doesn't even need to have one and they can still be okay with God. That's the whole point. And the thing is, is they would admit that. It's just when, it's just that the tactic is so confused by religion that they don't realize what they're doing. Because when you ask a Christian, when you get down to it, they'd say, yeah, the spirit, doing because when you ask a Christian when you get down to it they'd say yeah this spirit if they have like the Spirit of God is needed to read the Bible correctly like they they would admit that yeah and so that means the spirits

primary right but they don't understand the results of that like it's just a backward and I think it's from them eating a steady diet of religion their whole life and not really ever thinking yeah yeah well so this kind of gets into what we want part of what we want to talk about which is culture before you do that i just want to say um what i'm going to mention sarah's thing listen we have if i have any kind of like moral resistance against any aspect of christianity it would be those that are hyper zealous hyper hyper zealous and calvinist five five-point Calvinists are some of the most hyper zealous

people collectively, not specifically in the world. And they are dangerous in my opinion. They are an affront to the liberty Christ brings us. And so I see them almost as a quasi-militaristic spiritual force in the world that's going to grow as our society keeps fighting with each other over things.

Anyway, Jeff Durbin's church, and I'm promoting this because I believe it, and I haven't even talked to you about it, Delaney, but Sarah Young, Check My Church, is being sued. And, you know, these guys have more money than she does. She and Joe aren't people of money. And she started this Check My Church. It's really unfolding wonderfully. I see it as something that's going to really challenge religion in the future, in the nation, and in the world.

But at the same time, she has to fight, defend herself against that church that gets millions of views on their bull crap stuff and people buying into it and sending them money. So if people are of means, consider Sarah Young's Check My Church. I think they're going to do some kind of GoFundMe. They're being sued for talking about a public piece of information.

They're being sued for making a video about a piece of information that was already known. Yeah. So the resources of a church are going to suing a person who made a video about them it is astonishing the patheticness of that and like made a video of things that were publicly yeah it's not like yeah that's how that's how litigious Durbin is you know and maybe weak yeah oh I would agree I try not to go to the personal invectives of little men but I well it's not it's unbelievable how sad that is yeah that that's how he needs to treat another person as a pastor I don't think

this is a personal attack this is it you're a pastor doing that. Like, no. Yeah. It's, it's, uh, it's a theocratic authority and that's the danger of Calvinism. I mean, it was Durbin who said women who have abortions should be stoned. And I mean, that is insane thinking.

Not that I pro-abortion but that thinking is where i say it's too much we are gone off the richter so consider that side of things yeah um speaking about cultures yes so what is we've been working through what a yeshuan is always talking about that and uh i think we know what it is in spirit and we're starting to come out into the world trying to contend for a new apologetic which sort of has material implications on like how someone literally acts in the world with their words these are like material things like our existence here yeah so we're having to face the question of what the yeshuan there's a maybe a

yeshuan culture which is scary because we kind of hate proposing that so we should talk through it. Well, just like the complexity of our approach to the faith our approach to culture is equally as complex and the way I would say it is like Delaney just said our family really hates cultural demands and paradigms and You have to do and look and be this way to fit in to be loved and accepted and there is generally an american evangelical culture typically typically uh conservative in nature typically politically oriented in a certain way typically marching against social evils these

are typified in the culture and then it dwindles down to you know not of this world rings and shirts and Tommy Bahama shirts and and all kinds of things that fit in or you know Jeff Durbin like a very strong traditional this is what a Christian is this is what a woman is this is what a man is right harkening back to what we've been talking about on our Sunday school stuff. Yeah.

But what I would suggest, and I'm going to pass this by you to see what you think. I want to say as Sean the Baptist, who is a Yeshuan, when we go out, if we had 20 kids there, geez, that would be marvelous, kids there, geez, that would be marvelous, that show up on their own to say to the Jew, when I am with you, I'm a Jew. I love your, I love your sitting Shiva. I love your holidays.

I love your meals. I love your family unit. I love your business acumen when I see a Muslim I would say I any good culture that is not humanistic but is backed by humanism not humanism by humanity not humanism but humanity and their food and their family and the beautiful things those people are about and the same with a Hindu the same with all musicians actors a yeshuan can imbibe and enjoy all of those without sequestering themselves into a particular culture especially one that's evangelical so I just want to make it clear here before you comment on it

is there is no yeshuan culture that's what that's what our culture is yeah so it's in that liberality that we're talking about yeah it's like i feel like what you're trying to say is that culture religion our actions are of this world yeah they're of the spirit of man yeah and like the principle is become all things to all people yes in love so that you might reach them yeah and because yeah because it is of this world like it is the harkens back to the very clear material spirit divide that we always rely on,

where the look, the action, the associations are not going to affect your afterlife. It's your intent with them, your heart about them. So if you're going into a Hindu's house and you're saying, you guys are the only people going to heaven. So I'm going to do what you do. That's probably the wrong, that's not the Yeshuan culture.

The Yeshuan culture is, this is cool. This is of this world. I'm going to love you in it and like relate with you on it right so that's the culture of a yes you in is that it's all cultures so all cultures are allowed I feel like that gets to I feel like it's more that it's a spiritual it's a spiritual guide and an individual culture i always come to that it's individual culture like yeah an amalgamation as an individual of you relating rather than a collective i feel like it's individual rather than a collective. And you're saying that each individual, they cobble together.

Yes. Yeah. And I would completely agree. And then what I think you're saying, let me clarify. This is you're saying that it's spiritual. And what you mean by that is it's the spirit of man culture of the world that we build all things on. from our food we ate clothes this is where we're this is where delaney and i communicating no tell me i feel like the yeshuan culture is faith and love okay like if culture maybe we're like misunderstanding the word culture and i have a different thing i'm understanding it as the through line of a group, like something that unites multiple people at once.

And usually that's thought of as a outward thing. So like Hispanic culture has a certain kind of music, food, like way of talking to each other, blah, blah, blah. So, um, like way of talking to each other, blah, blah, blah. So, um, that is a material culture. That is a material, not immaterial. A material culture. Okay.

Culture is a collective thing. Culture is of this world. Right. Um, sorry. that is where there's the difference. Culture is a collective thing. Okay. We are suggesting that the culture is a spiritual culture that is not of this world, meaning the collective thing about a Yeshuan that we agree on, all Yeshuans agree on, is faith and love only.

The way that materially manifests is not collective it's not material it's not a material culture that's how i'm that's how i perceive it but what are you seeing well i think what we are both seeing now is the different way that we see things and delaney's level i really do listening to her see it as elevated from mine yeah because I'm older and I come from a different thing for me a yeshuan culture which is no culture it's all subjective is whatever you allow yourself to materially engage in so so the individual culture the

individual culture your use of culture is just in the material realm. Like there can't be a spiritual culture. Because, yeah, because when you make it the spiritual culture, that's called religion. I see. And as a Yeshua, I don't step into a Hispanic birthday party and say, well, you know, God really loves that we're having, we don't bring that into that culture unless they, I mean, it's just like we assimilate into any material.

That's what I mean by it. So the culture of a Yeshuan has nothing to do with the spiritual. The belief of a Yeshuan is a spiritual thing. That's right. Okay. I see what you're saying. Get it? Yeah. The belief of a Yeshuan is faith and love. Yeah. Christ alone, however we're defining it. And then the culture is one of subjectivity.

Right. And individual, like amalgamation, existential. Like these are the different words. So it's kind of like the punk ethic like punk means no technically punk means anti like established establishment so individual individual subjective do it yourself diy and so to put it in our people who might listen's heads my culture as a yeshwin in a um i'm just using this example a motorcycle bar full of beer drinking punks if i went in there i would be fully in loving all of it and if someone said what do you what's your faith I would say oh I'm a yeshwin I believe in faith and love and I'm

loving this Cheers and that would be my preferred kind of subjective experience in the world as a yeshwin and you could call yourself a yeshwin motorcycle lover yeshwin motorcycle punk right and then there could be a Yeshuan Buddhist. And a Yeshuan atheist. Okay. Because of Nietzsche's idea that we've killed God.

And so it's allowable in the broad spectrum of Christ's victory for someone to be a Yeshuan atheist because they personally don't agree with what religion has done with god so this is helping it's just definitions of words really culture is what happens in this world there is no yeshuan culture yeshuan is a spiritual descriptor of how someone carries themselves in their existential situation.

And they can name that situation. And the Yeshuan adjective is about their intent of what they're trying to do with that. that is that exists. exist because we have our circumstances, but we're condemned to be free. We have to choose. So what are you going to choose? And some people choose the Yeshua way and they might not even know it's Yeshua. Right. So we're calling them a Yeshua when they're loving.

We're like, yeah, Yeshua. Yeah. And you're automatically a Yeshua. Yeah. I know what church you go to. You're a Yeshua. How? Because you love people. Yeah. Yeah. Um, our organization, however, is about Christ being at that center. That's what we teach. Yeah. That is for people who want to go beyond just being a Yeshuwin who has some kind of arbitrary faith and some kind of, uh, self-described love and says, is there a better thing? And we want to teach the Yeshuan model of what we've discovered of fulfillment. Yeah. Yeah. So what the objective now for us

is Sean the Baptist is coming to the world to like unite with all people, invite them to a united front. A united front welcomes people to be a yeshuan blank and unite because you're yeshuans if you if you want to be a part of a united front you're yeshuan yeah then yeshuans the organization is like teaching more if you care about why we're doing that and our perspective on the bible right and how that like uh grounds the cultural perspective.

And the way I want to do one more thing here, and I don't need to do this for Delaney, she gets it, but the way I see it is imagine that there are five churches in an area and there is a event center in the middle of them and it's the Rock Church of San Diego and it's Calvary Chapel and it's Mormonism, it's Catholic, Buddhist Chapel, and it's Mormonism, it's Catholic Buddhist, whatever, okay? And all of them, the church gets out, and 10 people from each one of the churches go into the event center, okay? The respective members of each of those groups is going to be

assessing what each of their members do in that group. They're going to look at what they're wearing, they're going to look at how they talk, they're going to look at who they touch. If you're, you know, a fundamental Muslim, they're going to look at if they're wearing their garments, if you're a Mormon.

They're going to look if you're wearing a crucifix, if you're Catholic, what you drink, what you eat, how you behave, all those things. The Yeshua in one of the 10 churches, we go in there and we just don't, we think everybody there is fine. We don't assess based off outward cultural affinities. And when we see someone who's a right-wing conservative wearing perhaps a president Trump hat or something, we love them the same as someone who's wearing the liberal because that's their material cultural affinity that they want to choose and they have that right all of this is because i effing hate cultural demands and like bad religion things

we are the prey and culture is the predator it wants to divide and point out and religion are the biggest cultural perpetrators on earth. Yeah. Yeah. Make sense? Yes. Awesome. So we should maybe get into how this applies to Mormons. Oh. Specifically. May I have a drink of my purple drink? Me too. Cheers. You know who loves purple drink? Polynesians.

They love purple drink. I think black people do too you're a yeshuan Polynesian I'm a yeshuan Polynesian black that's actually like very we don't believe I don't you might believe in that in your yeshuan model I'm like I don't care about any cultural appropriations if i appropriate you and part of your culture it's because i love you yeah i think you're awesome yeah that's it is a flip i think it's it's doing something very different than what people are against cultural appropriation for because usually i think cultural appropriation is criticized because it's usually a manipulation you're putting it on to be more liked for this and then

you can get more sales and attention whatever like yeah there aren't our ulterior ulterior motives are just to love them ulterior right is that that's right no you're right I'm wrong yeah and and so I wish we could get to a place where childlike love for different cultures are seen by the culture itself as being cool, baby.

I mean, that's really great. Because a child wants to dress like, you know, a Hindu because it looks colorful. Yeah, it's almost like naive and dumb the way we think about it. And I wish we could have that attitude in our world. Yeah. But we've become so jaded and so controlling of our own culture. Yeah. We hate cultural appropriation.

But I know this is a real dicey thing because you went through graduate school with a lot of talk on this stuff. Well, I think the difference is that, you know, most people are really in the thick of the world and they are going there. They're kind of against not the way we're appropriating, but the fact that we aren't prescribed to the way the world works so we don't we're like way far out there we're not working normal jobs we're not we really have carved a unique path on how we do things and so it's hard for them to even relate on like seeing

a cultural like seeing culture in a different way so okay i think it's just you know it's the existential thing like people it's i would guess they're more critical of us saying it's existential i have a choice i can do what i want type of thing so so and speaking like you said of culture delaney uh i i want to bring up something that we wanted to talk the rest of the show about.

And that is in my experience and our experience of being here, we believe, I suggest strongly, that faithful Mormons, faithful Mormons, experience far less self-inflicted pain. Talk about a cultural appropriation. Yeah. pain talk about a cultural appropriation yeah in their culture in my estimation from my limited views they experience as a group they're faithful members less material pain okay I already before we get into this, I want to like, it sounds like we speak out of two sides of our mouth.

Because we say it's existential and that these powers don't have, aren't superior to the power of our choice. Right. However, those powers are real and there's probabilities in the world. Those powers are real, there's probabilities, and world those powers are real there's probabilities and there's also human weakness to fall prey to them there are circumstances that's the point right that is confusing to me at least with our our talk about existential stuff and essence right now i feel like you are bringing out an essence about Mormonism. You're bringing out like a general thing that happens. You're dead on. Yeah. So essence is how this world functions.

Yes. It's... there is a spirit of man. There are ways like capitalism is a power. The Marxist comment on it is correct, if you look at it from a certain way. However, from those powers existing, we assert there's still a modicum of choice, some little tiny amount in our heart. That is more powerful than all the existential influences that have been heaped upon us in our lives.

than all the existential influences that have been heaped upon us in our lives. That's how I am able to see God can be victorious in the free will economy of man. Okay. So sorry to, we're like really working through this with you guys. And I'm sorry if that's boring. No, I'm not. Especially my side of it.

Yeah. It's part of her culture. Mine is, I don't care if you're bored. Let's talk about this. of it yeah it's part of her culture mine is i don't care if you're bored let's talk about this but um so actually before we get into because there's that's a generality that mormons are x y and z yeah if you do this with mormonism you'll get x y and z in this world and that is at the core of our argument that religion produces x y and z in this world that it's reliable it's a system yes like it puts you in the world of essence right that's measurable

and knowable yes you can grasp it you can do the action right and it will result typically typically it typically it will result in the way that you did it. Like how well you play Mormonism, it will generally return back to you. And now I'm going to add, but, now finish the sentence. So, but, the modicum of choice that we do have, I think it's important to say, is in our heart.

Like our heart is able to choose. I don't think a person in a wheelchair is able to choose i don't think a person with in a wheelchair is able to choose if they can walk again like there aren't probability there the existential argument that we're making is not that someone has the choice to get over their physical it's all circumstance yeah it's all in the heart and that's how like that's where this it's hard for me to it's been hard for me to get and i think other people because the grad school thing it it asserts that the material is um in charge of your heart

Yeah. Oh, you know, like the material is more powerful than your heart. And we have to admit that is typically the case in people's lives. Yeah. They let the material affect their heart. We are saying that the person in the wheelchair, while they're never going to walk again, they do have the capacity in their heart to accept their fate and their relationship with God in a way that transcends the power of their condition.

Yes. And that's how Christians have really messed things up because they suggest that that faith will translate into your material world and that your faith is weak if you don't pray and you start walking again once. And it's wielded in all these horrible ways. So Mormonism is the biggest culprit of that.

They are one of the biggest besides fundamental Islam and it's the monotheistic. Yeah, I mean. And so, but here's the interesting fact and it's what it's kind of challenging to people. But as someone who really despises the bondage mormon doctrine and practices play upon their people there is admittedly a marked living example at least in the state of utah where the lds faithful typically are not seen in the courtrooms, the ICUs of the hospitals, the prisons and the jails.

I've spent time in those places for different people over 20 years observing. That's all I do. And the people who walk in to go visit a prisoner, they are almost always smoking outside. They're bedraggled. They are of a different socioeconomic place. They have tattoos. They're missing their teeth. All of those prototypical things we think of a different socioeconomic substrate that exists.

For the past two weeks, I've been at the hospital literally every day. Sometimes I'm sitting in the car outside. Sometimes I'm in there watching people go up and down the elevators. The majority of the people coming into the Salt Lake City ICU are not nuclear LDS families. They are what? The camera stopped. Oh, no. No, the camera just stopped. So keep talking.

Oh, I'll get the camera going. Okay. I'm going to come back to, uh, keep going. Yeah. So, uh, I see grandmas with purple hair and tattooed shoulders coming in with their sons that have faux Hawks and, uh, and all the non-prototypical active faithful Mormon stuff. And they go through all kinds of sorrow. And it's because of their lifestyle.

It's because of the culture that they have chosen to live by. And it's not the culture that the active, faithful LDS people have embraced. And so these examples, when I go to a courtroom, yeah, every now and then an LDS person is going to get caught up and get in trouble. But again, the parameters are a Latter-day Saint who is faithful and active, keeping their temple covenants, doing everything the Mormon church tells them to do, you rarely will find those people in those settings.

Now, you might find a lot of them in psychologist's office. You might see the prescriptions that they take are abundantly about Prozac or things. I don't know that or that the plastic surgeon's office are filled with more Mormons. But I'm just talking about the things of suffering typically with courts, the law, prisons, jails, hospitals, and all that.

hospitals and and all that now here's the point for many people especially the LDS they view this as an indication that God is with the church that it is the church of God and the members will say look at us look at us I mean aren't we the living embodiment of what people want in their life okay so that is at the core of it is their connection to God because because there are it is a so it's a material game and there are socioeconomic powers that keep a black person, like, there are more black people in jail.

It's a fact. And, like, it is literally the Christian argument right now to... say that these social like whatever that the how do they talk about it that the that they are constructs oh i've had the language in my head and now i can't think it's okay but do this extemporaneously i know the the construct isn't real that that is at the core of these Christian debates out in the world that gets political.

The Mormon debate. I say Christian because it's Mormon too. But it's at the core that they get political because they see that the person is appealing to the same argument that we are that they have choice that they that jesus made them to be more than what they are and they have to get out of their circumstances and we agree with them but it's in the heart it's not in material right and that's where it's like real it's a yeshuan versus christian thing they the christians are out to say you're a you black

person you are better than your conditions and that is true they can work and there it is possible but it's hard people have conditions that are harder harder they have they have heart disease in their life so they're gonna have a heart attack like these things are real and God doesn't just snap his fingers and change those realities for people. No, not at all.

And in addition to that, Delaney, it seems to me that those things don't even matter because like you pointed out, it's the heart of the grandma with the tattoos and the purple hair going into the ICU for her grandson toward God. And what's the contrary heart that we get from systems that help perfect their life on earth? That's the thing is that the counter argument to like the Mormon thing that it's God is that it's not God. That's just how the world works.

And that's true. And so it allows people to debunk mormonism or christianity really fast because the they're they're completely coming from the wrong they're playing the game of the spirit of man that's right and there's a downside like they you see that they have the benefits of the world but they're also like mental yeah like so they think that they did something spiritual that they have the truth no one else does yeah and those are the central elements that Christ ward against right he he did he didn't even talk about culture he didn't he didn't give a lot of ways of I mean he's

taught some things about agree with your adversary quickly. So you escape trouble in a few things. But I mean, the Mormons are all about these, these cultural structures that keep them healthy. The word of wisdom that keep them out of jail. We do this. We do that. We do this. We do that. Because that's what God wants. Right. God wants you to have a fruitful life. Right. I just saw a post by Don Oaks.

Oh. That's God wants the family to be, and it's pictures of him with his family and they're fishing. And like the fam, like God wants us to have healthy lives. Yep. And that, yeah, like the Christians, it drove me insane. Yeah. Your body is a temple of God. All of it. You have to eat healthy you have to and it's like that is so far from the point but it's from the it's so far from the point of the heart of god for us because he looks at our hearts but it is on point absolutely with the spirit of this world and because they are providing the the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good.

Okay. So the thing that I got so hung up with as like a young adult with your teachings and this whole thing is that love has a material output. You can't love someone. Your heart in this world is shown through an action, through words, through time, whatever it is. Those are material things that are expressions of our heart.

So like it lines up that a Christian's like, if you want to love, that's where the ratio of Christi kids get so like frustrated. It's like, how do you love? Like you have to do these things. And then where do you look to do those things? The Bible. And so like. And the way those are enacted out are through church.

Yes. And so that's why I think the point is not that it's not material at all. I think it's that it's subjectively material. You have improved your material life. Yeah. There's no question that you're a better father, husband, son, brother, friend. Which is the purpose of life. Yeah.

Materially, you are a more functional man in the spirit of man sense because of your relationship with Christ right and that's the argument that we made right and Christians like that argument it's like your life's gonna improve if you and but you get what I'm saying and with my material life improving the only way that we can see I mean I make these statements but the way that we can see if the fruit of that material life is right is that it comes with humility and contrition and not condemnation and judgment.

When systems get involved like Mormonism, they impose bondage on their members and because their members comport themselves to that bondage, they become proud. That's what the law does. And so it translates in their mind and world and heart, the thing that God is looking at to pride. So they're no different than the Pharisees of Jesus' time who obeyed every single law. They had perfect robes and this and that.

And Jesus is like, you guys are the sons of the devil because they were proud and mean and they didn't have a heart for the broken and lost who he came to save. So while we can make this teaching faithful Mormons experience less self-inflicted pain, that's an absolute truth. Yeah. Right. But they are far from the heart of God. And that's our whole point about why they need. And I'm going to pitch this again. They need to take their material earthly models of doing things and keep them. Keep their cultural. Keep their word of wisdom. Yes. But don't go giving some man credit for that. And then take. I'm sorry, take the Yeshua model and adopt it into the doctrinal way to see things.

And it will change that inconsistency between living good lives here and being right with God there. Yeah. Does that make sense? It definitely does. Saying that a faithful Mormon, sorry, what's the line a faithful mormon suffers less oh uh faithful mormons experience less self-inflicted suffering experience yeah it is you could also say in the same vein like people who go to college get more education yeah Yeah, and make more money.

It's like a, how the world works. Of course, if you're a faithful Mormon, Mormons believe in not drinking, not doing drugs, not going to jail. No premarital sex. You're going to have less suffering. Your life's going to be orderly. But they say we're doing God's will. Yeah. And they do it by laws, not by the spirit.

And it's, I just saw a history of the word cultural hall is a legal thing. There is a church, maybe I'm having this, I mixed it up, but I'm pretty sure there was a church that wanted a gym in the church, of course, because they have these gyms and they needed the zoning to be allowed to do it and it's in a cultural area so they called it a cultural hall and the zoning city allowed it and it's like and they would literally say god blessed us so we could have a cultural like that's that's the that's where that's the spirit of man yeah but they would say god allowed it right god allowed the city right

but it's like no that's how the world works god didn't allow it and you do agree i got a lot and i agree that god does want us god allows yeah he doesn't want us to be in courts right but he wants us to be free to be what we selectively choose to be part of and learn here through it. But it's our heart condition that really matters.

Like I want nothing to do with that culture. I don't care if I have to go to courts and end up in an ICU. I wanna live the way I live and enjoy what I live so I can be free. They will say, no, we wanna restrict you so you can at least reach these physical levels of excellence and believe somehow that you can enter into God's presence with a heart that looks down on everyone who doesn't.

Yeah. And your argument, when you say that you just want to be free, the thing that people misunderstand is that that's not you just saying, I want to be free. It's that the real choice that God appreciates is when you choose him in that freedom. When you aren't being coerced by religion out of fear, when you have the liberty to not choose God and you still choose him, that's when it's a real choice.

And that is such a good point because the Bible is constantly showing through the nation of israel in the old testament and all through the new test apostolic record that man's nature is when we fear to reach out to substitutes and so the nation of Israel did that all the time. God was saying, I'm God, come to me.

They will reach out to substitutes. And that's what Mormonism has done. They've said, we don't want a people who are saying I live by the spirit to choose whether I want to smoke a J or not. They say, you don't smoke a J to be righteous. They get the benefits of that from that hospital. And they call it God. Right.

But God is like, yeah, you don't, I don't want you to smoke the J, but I do want you to come to me directly from the heart. And that's the difference. If that's making sense. It's an order of operation. It is an order of operation. It's like God wants first the choice. That's right. And people think that the choice, material action choice, is choosing God.

And those action choices of goodness. Yeah. And so maybe it's actually what the choice is that is an argument. argument because we would argue yes that a good choice of goodness can sometimes be in line with what god wants sure yeah it's not that that they're opposed or something it's good and evil yeah it's just that um that the the choice that we argue that God wants is to faith beyond your knowledge of what you can control. So it's not the action. Right. And that's hard to describe. Very hard. It's like,

this is stuff that we're trying to really get to the bedrock of it so we can get rid of, they believe in polygamy or all that stuff. We're talking about a philosophical basis as to why Mormonism is wrong. Okay. So like sort of back to the ratio Christi thing. I think this is why they really want you to have a definition of faith because there is a real definition of faith here that we're talking about.

of faith here that we're talking about like there's a type of like a mechanic of faith that we're positing that god wants more than a faith that is like doing an uh like being disciplined materially and that's what christians call faith so i would say just like off the top of my head if you want a definition of faith, which I wouldn't give them the other day because I am arguing in a way, but my definition of faith is a trust in the Lord with all your heart, leading on it to your own understanding in all

his ways, submit to him and he will direct your path. Then you have to say, well, what are his ways? And then I go with Hebrews 11, which talks about faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. What that essentially boils down to is you trust in the promises of God. So then you have to say, well, what are the promises of God? And then you get a thousand different ideas from people borrowing from the old and the new.

But the actual promise of God is trust in my son, trust in the Lord with all your heart, and love the best you can. And all things will work out for your good and I'll take care of them. So that is the definition of faith to me. Okay. But, and then there's, am I just going on this? No, this is great. That makes sense.

But I feel like there's the, the, also the existential element of how that faith happens now absolutely and that's the thing that flips it from being in platonian essence of demands on what it means to please god to an existential thing of a wheelchair person not being able to do things and having their heart right with him and they have to choose how their existence is going to define their essence. Yeah, like I feel like all the scriptures you cited, someone could still say faith is in the essence, not in the existence.

They do, and they will, and they always will. And that's why we call this a biblical philosophy rather than a theology that must be embraced. Yeah, does that make sense? Yeah, it's true. You've been at the ICU every day visiting somebody for the last two weeks, and you don't see many Mormons in there. And what do the Mormons who, there has been like one, right? Yeah.

And what is their? She's an older woman. And the reason Delaney says as we talk about it, but when I go to the hospital, the ICU floor is one level and the other floors. And I've learned what those levels are because the patient I'm visiting has moved to the levels. So when someone gets in the elevator and they push level five or four, I know they're going to the ICU.

And on our way up, I converse with them. I say, oh, you're going to the ICU. And on our way up, I converse with them. I say, oh, you're going to the ICU. And they reveal their story. Well, this one woman, she's old matronly. She's like a genealogist. And I've learned that she is a true blue Mormon and her son who was under stress had a stroke.

but he's doing pretty good. She's the only one I've seen in all these weeks of being in that elevator constantly and talking with the people that don't fit a socioeconomic class that the Mormons just don't want anything to do with. And that doesn't just mean white, you know, trailer trash type people. It means Hispanics.

It means all races not fitting the Mormon models. Disabled. It's all the same. And then going to the prison and visiting prisoners there, I've seen the same, same, same thing. So that makes the Mormons say, everybody here in Utah is like, I joined the church because it's good.

They don't realize their it makes their heart far from him yeah yeah and i know that because i was one and my heart was far from him compared to where he wanted me to be as a pursuer of truth yeah the way uh but finally i don't know how much time we've got but i would liken it to this the mormon tabacle Choir is the Mormon's version of how God would assess a person's beauty when they die.

Okay? And I assess the way God would see people is not by belonging to a choir, but by a one-man band who plays the drums and the cymbals with his knees and feet and plays the guitar. There's one guy, his name's Cam Cook, and you should watch his song, Mama. It's all him. And that's what God is looking at is who you are because God is not a respecter of persons.

We can't join a church and think he's going to respect us because we are part of that collective. Yeah, so Mormons would look at their participation and how well they seamlessly merge with the choir as their level of holiness. That's the illustration from the music world. Yeah. Yes. And we would say you're kidding yourself and thinking that you don't have qualities as that person in the whole that god sees and is like looking at yeah like as more important than the way you fit into the right because like we've talked about in in our sundays uh like peter says

certain when he goes to cornelius who god tells him he's a good man and he didn't know of jesus or anything and he was always already pre-qualified and peter didn't want to go to him and and he says truly i've seen god is not a respecter of persons yeah religion wants people to believe that God will respect them because of their affiliation to the institution.

And he's going to look at their heart. It's really interesting. This is kind of personal maybe, but architecture has a whole line of thinking that talks about part to whole. And like design is like you're kind of stating a philosophy and how you negotiate a part and a whole and i see what you're saying as talking about that and it's the same sort of like um i don't know like story you know the story of like if you you have a ship and you replace its parts yeah and then you get to the point where all the parts are replaced is it still the same ship right it's that same sort of part

whole thing and i feel like that's what you're talking about like yeah the the is there an essence of a ship that's there outside of its material parts right like what is god looking at you know are you fitting into the whole of a body of Christ, the body? I don't know.

That's fascinating because we could take your example of the ship and we could say there are, there is a category of people who would say, um, that this meets the essence of a true ship. It's got a rudder, it's got life preservers, it's got hulls, it's got all this stuff, right? And then they would also allow that ship to still be the essence of a ship, of the original ship, as long as a percentage of all its parts were original, right? But there would be some people who would value that ship through what it's been through.

Yeah. And they would say, I don't know how much has been replaced or whatever but this process has been in the battle of potemkin and this yeah and it's the essence of the thing and that is central to what we're talking about yeah i think there's like yeah there's a lot to it how long we gone about an hour well uh we hope you're enjoying or learning what is helping us format the way the yeshwin model is coming forward we hope you're seeing that there is a difference between what we do as yeshwins through all of our content to teach you and by the way i just have to give one quick little

highlight you know preview watch for Delaney's forthcoming work that's going to come out I don't know when it's good it will probably be uh right after no just after Sean the Baptist gets launched we're focusing on the really good addition to the whole Yeshuan model and then we have our uh and then we have our education hopes with schools and And we have our outreach with Meet Sean the Baptist, United Front.

And that doesn't include anybody learning from us at all. The final thing I just want to reiterate, and I know we do it all the time, is we absolutely believe we are all free because we are all loved by God by the fact that he gave us his son who paid for our sin. all loved by God by the fact that he gave us his son who paid for our sin. So we just discard the import of doctrine in terms of God, you must believe this. Not God, man, you must believe this.

And we say faith and love. Yeah. Yeah. We will, uh, please look into our leadership think tank program. That is how we really get people to come in and engage with what we're doing at a more real and personal level. So we welcome anyone to do that. We're in the middle of a really great session of that right now.

Yeah. Oh, and one final thing. Watch Sunday Schooled, The Mortal Messiah, Victorious Christ. What series is that? Four or five? I don't know. You can get it online. The most recent one. Watch it because it really helps lay out our philosophical approach to this whole thing. It does. Get the Eshu and Zap. It'll all be there.

Thanks guys. Thanks guys. We'll see you next time. Thanks for watching! you