What the LDS Get Right

What the LDS Get Right | HOTM EPIPHANY: Episode 5 with Shawn McCraney and Delaney McCraney Norris

Transcripts:

Dear friend, if you wanna feel better, don't let the devil make you toss this letter. If you've been crossed up by hoodoo, voodoo, the wizard or the loser. You got family trouble, man trouble, woman trouble, no life is a problem. You're looking for a true friend or a true lover Or if you've been living in the trouble Well, I'm coming to your town to break it all down And help you with all of this I'm looking to help you find bliss One day, one way, can't miss I'm here to tear all the walls down

Doesn't matter if it's a large town or a small town Just like Joshua and the famous walls of Jericho I'm here to tear down the institution But you must tell seven friends You must first bring seven friends And don't be selfish and keep this all to yourself And don't eat selfless Hate is trying to take someone else's love for yourself.

But I'm here to tell you that love is trying to help someone else. You need to see me right away so I can fix this, ah. You need to see me right away. You need to see me right away so I can fix this, ah. You need to see me right away so I can fix this You need to see me right about now And if you are suffering a strange sickness Or someone is blocking up all of your success You need to see me right away so I can fix this up.

Sounds sincerely yours in faith, love, and peace, your friend Archbishop Harold Holmes. Hey, welcome. Heart of the Matter Epiphany with Sean McCraney. Hello. Delaney McCraney, Norris' daughter and co-founder of Yeshuans. Yes. Tonight's show is going to be two parts.

Part one, where my dad here, longtime host of Heart of the Matter, will describe the general cultural affectations that most LDS use to recruit people. Part two will be where we discuss things about the LDS church that are not only biblical and Christian, but support their faith in God. But before we do this, we want to describe what we offer both LDS people and believers, but especially seekers of God and spirit and truth over at Yeshuans. All right. And, you know, over the years, it's really weird.

I think it's the way that I'm constantly being humbled is I have people, even friends, say, we need somebody to do something to reach the LDS. Nobody's doing anything to try to help them, to reach them. No one's doing anything. All day, every day for 20 years.

anything to try to help them to reach them no one's doing anything yeah all day every day these are 20 years these are evangelicals typically are Christians so they don't see what John Delaney is doing or anything as valuable they're talking about a religious thing you need a new religion and I'm talking about good friends to my face will say this yeah so Delaney what a meeting about how to reach the LDS, they'll say, who's going to reach the LDS? What are we going to do? My gosh.

It's like in the play of Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor, it's like Pharaoh saying, who can I get? And Joseph's like, I'm in a multicolored coat here. Okay. So what have we done? What do we offer? Very simply simply like five or six points number one we do Bible verse by verse through the important they're all important books but for the more major important books all of the Apostolic record New Testament and a lot of the old you've gone through it as an ex-mormon yeah as a independent seeker of truth

not prescribed to any uh denomination and you've talked about the context the language and the personal application of the bible right every single verse of the apostolic record and every single verse of the big ones of the Old Testament. You've finished that. Finished that. Yeah. Okay.

And then we also have now this year, we started a topical teaching every Sunday at 10 a.m. where we talk about biblical concepts. They're amazing. For people to consider. Yeah. Thanks. That's nice of you. And then Delaney and I, we talk about the Bible and it's without preparing. She's going through it and we've recorded sitting down together as dad and daughter and she asked questions from the place she's at.

and I try to answer and it's really good it's called I don't get the Bible so that's stripped of yeah that's a different you get the Bible and all these different yeah like structures yeah and then we explain Mormonism from a biblical perspective and as once being LDS on this show every Tuesday night yeah and then we do a live call-in show. We call it Firesides on Sundays at 2 Mountain Time.

Where you can call 2 Mountain Time. You can call in. Call in. And Delaney and I field any question. She has a worldview that is a little different than mine because she comes from a different generation. And she has more understanding of things I don't. And we have people who call in and do all kinds of things I don't.

And it's, uh, and we, we have people who call in and do all kinds of things or we read endless comments. And then we also have what we have an app, uh, that is for your phone and, or a website. And it allows you to have all these things. And on that app are countless courses, all these things and on that app are countless courses courses topical courses books books forums articles podcasts programs initiatives events debates and the thing that's unbelievable is we just steadily watch our audience get smaller and smaller and and so I ask myself, why is society so against what we offer

in this thing? Is it because the evangelicals want to own it and they bring the Mormons into their doctrine or the Mormons don't want anything to do with us either? I mean, what is the gig? Do you want me to answer? Yeah. You do? I want you to tell me what you think. There's a number of things. There's like a technical problem.

You've never curated your content for social media. People see an hour-long video. They don't want to watch that, especially when it isn't just right off the bat when you start, like, this is how the Mormon did it. Like you don't do it like that. So there's like a formatting problem. That progressively has gotten worse over time.

There's an algorithm problem. We stopped making content, went private with cults in 2021 stopped making content went private with cults in 2021 and that demolished attention to a channel like it was really not because people didn't care that's the thing that i think you associate views with people care we just don't make content that gets views like got it um so where before i was saying we've got it we've got it now it's my fault my fault no no no no but well it's not um we know because yeah the people in

charge of that haven't really done anything to that wasn't well they tried i just wouldn't let them in charge meaning me not the past people like Like, I haven't. You've done it. But also, then when the people do tune in, I don't think they like what they're hearing. Like, we're also, like, not, we don't have an audience that we cater to.

We're not evangelical. We're not LDS. We're not anti-religion, even. Like, we are. We're not anti-religion even, like we are, but there are people that are like, F God, like F religion, ex-evangelicals who don't believe in anything. We're not atheists. We're nothing. So we have no audience. We're not artists, but we're not, yeah.

So I think we're like across the board. That's a really good summary. And then we also have a leadership program where we're coming into our third iteration of that and really good for people who want it. And right now we have five or six people who are going to come in our newest one that starts in around May and you're welcome.

Go to yeshuin.faith to check that out. Can I just follow up on that long? Absolutely. I just said the best part about all of this is that we're now launching yeshuans to reposition us in the world i think all this time you've been doing r&d and now it's ready and we have all these things delivered and you're bringing a solution to the lds and that's what we're starting now okay you might see us on reels and shorts now because we're starting to like bring it back to you right and i think we will find that audience and all that stuff and i agree all right now two folks

tonight first uh what i have seen being lds for the first 40 years of my life and then what the lds uh part two will be what the lds have right, which is not always found in Christianity. And so we're going to give them props. Last week we beat them up. You know, I don't believe in just being malignantly against anything because there's always a yin and yang to everything.

And they would not be what they are if it was so terrifying. So we'll talk about those things. Yeah, definitely. Okay, so having been LDS, then their cultural affectation, their cultural unite. Now, there's always exceptions. There's always someone who's different. But generally speaking, what we are about to share with you, we're sharing with you so that you can be aware of what's going on behind the smile.

Okay? Yes. Because there is always something going on behind the smile. Okay. Yeah. Because there is always something going on behind the smile of a Mormon. Always. Okay. And the first one is, uh, I think comes directly from the roots of their founder. Um, they use charm, you know, you've heard of it.

It's like a snake charmer. They're very charming. They get you to come. They, they know how to draw you in. They know how to smile. They're, they have a culture that's trained in this because nobody in the culture ever really says, I'm so depressed. I just want to kill myself.

It's always, you know know spirit shine i'm happy how are you good yeah and so uh just know that um they use charm and it's straight from i believe what smith had and reports of him is when they met him they were just like totally drawn in to his person and the apple does not fall far from the tree yeah that that charm seems baked into so many levels of the way that uh organization is structured yeah to the point where the comment you get about lds is they're great neighbors yeah the thing you feel when you leave is i'm sad i don't have people helping me move and baking me cookies now like that's the thing about the lds that you love and that you miss

yeah and they're fun i mean they know how to have fun they they do fun without the dark influences of the world so they don't have drugs and alcohol and and wild sex they have culture hall uh potlucks and they have dances and they have basketball games really fun culture so and Brigham Young is the one who really kind of cemented that fun spirit in the in the thing the second thing is they will always appear very open to you they'll appear very almost liberal yeah you, I've had whatever you are. Yeah. Whatever you are.

We love you. That is. And so I've had so many experiences like on planes where I've sat by an LDS person and they've said, so what do you do? And I say, I'm a pastor. That is so cool. Cool. That was just cool. Right. And so, uh, but when they see that they cannot prevail over a person, they know they can't.

Immediate shift. It's a shift. It is like night and day. So much so that sometimes they'll prejudge you if they see tattoos or a Bible. They won't get near you. And this is from 20 years of living with them in this city of Salt Lake. Yeah. And like intentional, you do not let an opportunity pass to engage with them if you have it. Oh no. So you know what they're like in actual engagement. Yeah.

And you'll literally have a family of them in a place and you're nearby at a table and you go, how you doing? And the, and the kids will go good. And the dad will go. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The kids don't know how to act. So they went to the hospital and the doctor there was LDS. A really wonderful doctor.

He did amazing work. I was really impressed with him as I watched him. And he looked at me and he said, I find people with tattoos are all sociopaths. Oh, my God. I'm covered with them. And he like says it to me. Part of me wanted to say, F you. The other part said, oh, I didn't know that huh i'm so grateful for your skill and expertise in this yeah and then when it was done i hugged him and he was just like oh my gosh yeah i'm glad you didn't say f you because it would have solidified oh i know

yeah uh another thing that they do is they will always at some point if a conversation carries on longer than just a quick hello, they let you know they're Mormon. Oh my gosh. Yeah, always. Yeah. Because they're fishing. Maybe they want to see it. In so many words, though. Yeah. how mormon you are right the lingo yes my ward my my ward my and they talk in terms of you should just know yes you know that you should know what a warden is yeah and what a bishop is and they especially in this state they talk openly as if everybody will know it's really a form of

entitlement yeah so that's another thing to look for and they always humble brag if you're lds uh or even if you're not they will humble brag themselves once they have sort of figured out what you are because if you're not lds they humble brag in ways to try to get you to think i want that too so they'll say yeah i'm just up oh i did i was in idaho last week looking at my apartment complex that we rent it's only a couple hundred units you know uh but uh i met my wife at harvard when we started to buy apartments and they always will

appeal but it's humble brag because she's such a wonderful lady she's certain she serves the homeless every weekend right yeah it's not a brag yeah oh we have so much money they don't brag like that we've been so blessed we've been so yeah like they don't deserve it yeah you know you put your face down and it's their culture and it's a salesmanship culture.

It's ingenious and it's spiritually driven by a maniacal force of this world. I'm not saying good salesmen do it too. It's part of the spirit of man. Christians, other religions. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And then we kind of touched on this, but they always don't say Jesus. They say the Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

They'll say the Lord Jesus Christ. They call God Heavenly Father or Father in Heaven, depending on their maturity in the scripture. And then they always refer to as their church as the church with the article. It's so entitled. It's so offensive. And you just get in that habit and it's just the church i do feel like this one might be morphing in order to appear more christian okay they're saying god just yesterday i had a mormon text me god is so good to us oh so like knowing who i am and so, I thought that was interesting.

You know, when you say that makes sense because, um, they went from proprietary God to hiding their proprietary to hiding it, but they know amongst themselves, I'm sure they still talk in code. Oh, for sure. Yeah. But I think you're right because we had a guy here who, who, uh, took a car off our hand and all these things fit with him.

All of it that he did. I just watched it and it was just last week, but he did say now the church that I go to. So he didn't just say the church. Yeah. So it is morphine, but it's more, none of the doctrines are morphine. Just the approach. No, no, no. And the approach to people in public. This stuff is relevant internally still, for sure.

The next thing is I feel, and this is me personally, that I'm constantly being sized up. I felt that way when I was a member. You definitely are. Constantly being sized up. Yeah. In terms of your merits, what you've accomplished. What are you doing? What you're doing.

your merits what you've accomplished what you're doing where you've been yeah yeah it's what are you doing how are you affording that where are you living what like what are your children doing yeah how what school do they go to what do you guys do in the ward yeah yeah everything and so that leads to humble bragging. Oh, we just try to serve.

We're not in the ward. We're in the stake leadership, but it's always that, you know, and it's so maddening. And if you're LDS and watching this, deny it because you're lying. If you are, you know, this is how you are. Yeah. You know, and let me tell you, when you meet a real Christian, not an evangelical or a phony person pushing their religion.

They really are that way. They don't care about their worldly affairs. They don't care about the church they go to. They don't even, a real Christian is humble and broken before you. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Yeah, not, yeah, a hundred percent. Yeah. And they will speak as if those around them are LDS to you. I said that. And they, in my experience, and this may be changing too, but they will inevitably try to get you to participate in whatever they've deemed you're about.

If you love sports and you're a young man, you know, we play basketball on every Tuesday. If you're a woman who loves uh homemaking we have a home making class on you ought to come join us like this person is a is uh that homemaker you should talk to them yeah there's someone in the congregation always yeah i know i have a friend anything thing you've got if you've got a problem we've got a solution for you and so that recruitment brings you in and the doctrine is not what does it no not at all the only time there's an exception to that

is if they realize you're a like a bible type person they'll appeal to that appeal to that the best they can but if they know you know your stuff yeah dead silence walk away. Yeah. Yes. Okay. And they're positive about whatever a person does, thinks or believes, unless it's evil to them. And depending on their missional spirit, they will always ask questions, then slip in what they believe in the most liberal, non-specific way.

Oh, I love Jesus. I believe in grace. It doesn't matter what you say. They will slip it, but they don't give you the full picture, which is theologically diabolical. Yeah. And not liberal at all. Not. It's all in law. That's the thing. There could be a whole show on this, but you, I i think set a precedent that is now extremely popular which is lds people fighting for being what they are in the church wow there's so much of that there's so much on social media girl posting i drink coffee and i'm mormon what are you gonna do about

it like this is my church like all like that is actually and i think like there's a lot of speculation that the church is behind it like paying them to actually promote that you can be what you are in the church yeah i have tattoos i'm mormon yeah and like like so and that's what i think you're trying to say is they act like they embrace stuff on the surface but clearly the doctrine is like the absolute opposite absolutely always always i don't know what it's becoming a tactic now an overt one where it wasn't in your day it was the opposite right so in our day it was conform or you will be ridiculed

and now they are doing the opposite but the doctrines do not change and the bishop's job is to bring you out of that former way and into their system yeah it's like more slimy this way super i think they have become more slimy yeah it's uh they never ever will uh never ever do they personally if they're active and faithful which might be different today from what you're telling me appeal to the dark side they don't well dye their hair black have a lot of piercings tattoos they don't wear dark clothes they They don't listen to metal.

They, they enjoy a certain poppy song to be cool with the other kids, but they don't get into the, to the weeds of the real dark stuff. And if you're of that thing, they won't probably try to reach you unless you appear to be needy for something like help or direction and they might put their arm around you and try to bring you in it seems like that's where the threshold is now is they've moved from um not accepting even the look of it to accepting the look of it but not the reality right so if you just are like kind of struggling and like they still see you as recruitable right and like

changeable then they'll work with you but if you're like your meetings with the bishop i think revealed that like they were just sussing you out to see if you would eventually change or if you're never going to change right that's the difference and they learn never yeah another thing is they are huge on name dropping um yeah you know my favorite band i have on my ipod imagine dragons because they're part of our church and i just you know they're so good and you know have you ever watched uh what's that jesus show

that's on that's popular have you ever watched the chosen a very lds back you know one of our friends is part of that production and david archuleta mitt romney glenn beck they love to drop that and you know scientology does the same thing very similar yeah they because the and is that because the doctrine implies that your worldly success is a heavenly success? Absolutely.

So you like, that's why the smile on the charm, like it's actually heavenly related. Right. Because they have God in them. He has blessed them. And it's the result of them being LDS. Wild. So they don't recruit. That is diabolical. Yes. And they don't recruit through the sin people have. They'll work on that one.

But it's always about what we can do to make you really successful in this world. So then they look for the success. successful people. Oh, they love that. That's so wild. Yeah. It's yeah. Pretty terrible. Yeah. And then, um, like we said, they will invite you and do everything else. Uh, you know, I want to tell a story, uh, their cultural appeal forms a thin crust over what they are, unless they really do have the spirit of God in their lives and home.

And let me tell you a story. We had a stake president and they have the big family and he was, he was a dentist. He was always well appointed and they always put off the, you know, we've got it together. We had a lot of things that they put out to the stake as themselves. Well, one day I had to go over there. I was a stake high councilman.

I had to go over to their house for something and when i went to the door they had a disabled daughter who let me in and the people in the house didn't know i was let in so i'm standing in the living room off underneath the staircase that came down from the upstairs and they were going at it screaming and yelling and the stake president was out of his gourd with anger over something or another and he's like stomping down the stairs and he turns the corner and there I am and his face just went red he stammered and it's like the facade was off. And that is what they are living under, the pressure of that faith to live it.

And so you have a lot of things where the home is not what it's supposed to be. All right. Any other thoughts on that that you've observed? Oh, there are so many. I think these are big ones in person person i feel like there's a lot of internet tactics now there's a lot of but these summarize the spirit behind all of it which is like recruitment yeah and like shape-shifting to fit the essence of mormonism which is connecting your spiritual worth to your worldly success yeah so however they that gets communicated so you're on social media i think you are on the different

things i'm i'm not but do you i hear uh mallory and cassidy mentioned things sometimes about But do you, I hear Mallory and Cassidy mentioned things sometimes about the, and mom, the presence of the LDS people online. How is it different than the presence of others? Yeah, I'm seeing people talk about this who are not LDS that like, like I just said, that it seems there's like a thing going around that it seems like the lds church has put a lot of money into behind influencers in ways that we don't even know it's not just

the over influencing like you're talking about we're like i'm lds and it's like people being like like things you'd be surprised by like um whatever lifestyle a lot of it is lifestyle oriented i'm vacation traveling oh well it's both it's both sides there's there's the the um aspirational influencers that are beautiful stylish have a perfect family do live the life that you want and then they just sneak in that they're lds so i think that's the version that you're talking about then there's a lot of people trying to make the mormon church more relevant by being like i'm struggling with

my porn addiction and i'm LDS. Oh, okay. Like being a little more honest about things or whatever, like testing the waters on you. Wow. But, and then there's a lot of theological LDS debate. LDS younger people who really have learned the theology and defend it to their death against Christians specifically of why they're Christian or why Christians are more dumb than them.

And so that's what I see most of. I wish every one of those youngsters would come and talk to us, but they don't. I don't know if they know about us. We can reach out. I think they know. If they are in the apologetic realm of defending Mormon doctrine. Oh, probably. Oh, they are. Yeah, I don't think they'll talk to you because you aren't, like, social media is about hits, and they won't get a good hit from an old man.

No, from having a nice conversation. Like it would actually, I think, go better. They want something that's really hot and cold. Like the Trinity is evil and you get like a really staunch Trinitarian and then you debate that, like it would be less fraught with you. Cause I think you're like, yeah, kind of. That makes sense.

That's, that's my impression, but. Okay. So, uh, part two. Part two. Okay. We want to, after kind of giving you that onslaught of frustration with the church we want to explain the other side that's right even biblical um and what serves to show that for some members they have teachings and practices that are sound and even more correct than evangelicalism um so we don't like their tactics but they're they're not off in a lot of ways which is why we have a really unique thing where people are like do you hate them or do you like them like

all the time so um we love them as people we love them as an organization on earth we hate them in their uh bondage making their law keeping and the enforcements that they put on their people who are unsuspecting of their larceny. So it's a two-way street. Yeah. It's just not easy. Yeah. So we all know that the low-hanging deceptions that everybody who gets involved in reaching the Mormons hits them with.

We know of the golden plates, the angel visitations, looking at rocks, the Book of Abraham, false priesthood, claiming authority, plural marriage, blacks in the priesthood, all of that stuff fine. OK, theologically, they are absolutely not biblical in most senses. Theologically, they are absolutely not biblical in most senses. However, what is taught and practiced among them is founded on sound biblical principles that maybe many Christians today could learn from them and follow in thereafter. It's not that Christians don't do these things, but the LDS, they strongly educate and encourage the following things of their members. Okay,

let's look at some of the big ones in order of no importance. Okay. What are... The first one is they teach their members to pray. Yeah. Yeah. They open their meetings with prayer. They pray. And Latter-day Saints believe and teach the importance of prayer. Now, there's going to be Christian zealots out there who are going to say, yeah, but who are they praying to? And, you know, I would just respond to them by saying, well, who the hell are you praying to? A God that predestines the entire world to go to hell if he hasn't elected them? Is that who you pray to? So because we don't have

the ontological and epistemological knowledge of God right, doesn't mean that their prayers are ineffective. And so I think we should get rid of that. They are a praying people. Yeah. Yeah. And in the same way that like someone who has never prayed or doesn't believe in God and has a moment, right. Like, God, are you there? Like God hears that. Yeah.

And they don't know that Jesus is a, yeah. And it, and it harkens back to my 97 roadside experience. I believe God was once a man and that Jesus was my elder brother and Satan was related to me spiritually when I asked God to come into my heart. I didn't have any of the epistemological or ontological things right.

And he still reached me. So we got to get rid of this as evangelicals against the Mormons. They're a praying people. All right. Second, and this is, this has a pro and con. They teach and preach and live healthy living. And that's not just in substances. And sometimes they're wrong.

Like red wine has been proven to be pretty good for people or coffee has been proven to be good in moderate amounts. So they overextend it, but they do believe in healthy living. Like they don't believe in partying all night as a people. They don't. They cut it off. They believe in moderation. What's that? Family. They believe in family things, even though, contradictorily, they also destroy families.

Yeah, true. Right. But for people who don't know any better, they believe in family. And a member family could say, this job's taking too much away from my kids. And they would still be allowed to be in the Mormon church, even though they would love to take everything from the man and give his attention to the church entirely and barely give attention to the family.

They'll do that. But bottom line, you have your choice. And then they also have good sexual mores that they teach. You know, Smith was a syncretic amalgamator of information. And he glommed on solidly to 19th century practices of good living, healthy eating. That's where he came up with the Doctrine and Covenants 89 and the Word of Wisdom.

And to do this, it was all from the age. Everybody, Kellogg was doing that. The Seventh-day Adventists are another group that are like that. They don't believe in the drinking and the smoking. And the Jehovah's Witnesses are a lot like that, all from the same time period. Smith was not unique. He was just a syncretizer of trends at that time.

And then the problem with Mormonism is they tie, though, they tie refraining from tobacco and alcohol or harmful drugs to being worthy before God and we know what Yeshua said it's not what goes into the mouth that defiles a man it is not so yeah we can mess our flesh up and get high and cause an accident and things like that that's not defiling you he said what comes out of the mouth is what defiles a man and they work on that too so let's be let's admit that um all right healthy living why not you know i've always said you know we rejoice when uh in high school

and college all of our friends are and at the the adult party after a game all the people are trying to get you to drink and then we see what it does to us, and then we rejoice in people going to rehab. Yeah. I just hate the dichotomy. I hate it. You have to be able to handle, you have to be able to, like, know in advance how to do these things that you've never done, and then know how to stop them.

Right. And if you don't know, learn through experience what works and doesn't work the lds don't give you that option they make it all verboten but the world pushes it and then the fallout is extreme there's there could be a better way there could be all right uh one of the things that they destroy all churches i know of is they're a focus on youth i mean the whole ward operates around the youth.

The bishop's real assignment is to ward the young men. Destroy, meaning they're the best at it. Yeah. Yeah. They're the best at it. And you just, you can't beat them, you know, and it's a world system. So when we went to the leadership, we're trying to get them to embrace the biblical realities from the false BS.

And then we can bring in those two powerful elements of what they do here and what the truth is. And the Mormon church could dominate the religious realm of Christianity. They could dominate it. They could. I'm realizing right now that Christians have to outsource that because, I'm realizing right now that Christians have to outsource that because, and that's why something like Charlie Kirk's youth organization, I think became so like really widespread. Political movements are really big for Christians because it gives them a thing for their youth to, you know, the Mormons make everything in-house in-house they in-house everything and

and so you know children youth programs you're always have something to do in-house and i think christians are desperate for that right now wow really good point i thought i mean thought about that yeah the other thing with youth is they start young and they are indoctrinating. When I was a kid, they had the stars and the moon beam classes. They called us moon beams.

Wow. Not sunbeams. And sunbeams. That's sunbeams, moonbeams, and stars before primary. Oh my God. Moonbeams. That's so trippy. Yeah. But they get you singing about the prophet from a young age the book of mormon and it's just yeah mind bending so it has its negative but in terms of activities for teenagers i tell cassidy i tell you when your kid gets to be have them pretend to be wanting to join the mormon church you'll have a good upbringing you'll make a lot of good friends and just laugh at their doctrine yeah

yeah i mean they'll get out fine my husband's a testament to that yeah took advantage of it when it was but it was hard for him to leave i think it it they make it hard on you when you leave that really is it's kind of like your position on sex like it's not the engagement that's bad but the breaking up and that's what's hard about the lds church isn't that funny yeah and you pay for that larry's paid for that because larry has a good heart and he loves his friends and he loved them whether they were mormon or not and it doesn't come both ways

unless they think they can recruit you all right uh they have a strong focus on education and occupational development they have know your religion they have constant courses Sunday school, seminary. They teach their people doctrine and practices of Mormonism. They teach them their history. They don't teach the Bible well.

They think they do because they cover it once every four years, but they don't. I mean, we spent two and a half years just doing revelation. They do in one year, the entire Bible. And you know, they skip the parts that are going to challenge anybody. But their educational system, really good.

And unfortunately, they emphasize the stuff they want to inculcate their members with. The fifth thing is they have a fantastic welfare system, but it's rigged. It's rigged because you've got to pay to play. You got to pay the piper it's limited there's all kinds of things with it i don't know much about this can you explain it yeah they they have what's called a bishop's storehouse every region has a bishop's storehouse so let's say i lost my job and i did once when i was all the s i didn't have a job and you have to go and you have to interview to see if you can go to the Bishop storehouse and you go through and you shop and it

adds up and they that is bought for you by the ward you're in and and then they have of course they have their goodwill is a goodwill Deseret industries they have a job resource they have in-house counseling for people so what they have done is they have made a world for their members to participate in and they've done a good job of it no other church no it's unbelievable yeah so i mean we could really as christians learn from them and start to adopt exactly how they do it.

I know. I got to admit the whole thing is enviable. Of course. It's like really amazing. It is the tree of knowledge of good. Yeah. But that's, that's why it's so sinister and diabolic. I know. Yeah. And I really love the, the outrageous effort that we propose to like flip that church. Like we, like it's an amazing church and I don't think anyone recognize or respects it as much as we do. And, but with that amount of respect, the hate for their claim to associate that with God is as strong.

Yeah. And, but honestly, that's what makes it work. Yeah. That is what keeps it running is people believing that God's behind it. Yeah. And that, like, it's really hard. And that, like, it's really hard. So if the leaders would someday wake up and see changes they can make theologically on how God could be behind it, they could keep that attraction through what we say is Yeshua's, that he's come back already.

I question if it would take the air out of their sails oh it would they lose yeah they definitely lose because most people operate by laws and commands and guilt and shame and fear yeah but those who would stay in it and even christians who would come to it would be able to rejoice in the truth of it yeah and. And participate in the worldly benefits that Smith established.

Yeah. It would be a more stable, it would be steadied. Yeah. It would be steadied. It would be steadied. Yeah. And therefore the members who did remain would be emancipated from the dark side of what it's founded on. But you're right. It's quite possible that the minute they turn from that all the power that they've gotten to make it this system that they might just fall well we we just have seen that even in a christian independent christian out in the world not affiliated with any church gets the wind taken out of their sails when they think christ has returned. So there's something really hard about it. But there's an adjustment period,

and then there's a realization of how amazing it does make life. It actually is fantastic. And so if we were the leaders of the Mormon church, the biggest joke in the world to even envision that, but if we were the leaders, we would say, well, what will happen if we do this? And if those leaders say we would lose too many people, we would lose all the tithes.

We'd lose the participation. We know what their hearts are centered on rather than the truth. And if they're making administrative decisions like that for the world empire we know what they really are about so there's a line out there i just heard last sunday that when an apostle rises up in the ranks and is willing to pull the trigger the church will change and that's what we hope for yeah uh utilization of members they're excellent at that they know how to take uh anybody and what they're good at and plug them right in.

The people who are bookkeepers become the ward clerk. Everybody has something to do within the church. And so they do that better than the Christian church. They just do. And they pay to be able to do it. Oh, yeah. Isn't that a funny thing? Yeah. You usually would pay, get paid to do it. Oh yeah. Isn't that a funny thing? Yeah.

You usually would pay, get paid to do these things and they figured out how to make it where you pay to be able to pay. Tithes. You devote yourself and it's an honor to do it. That's because Smith said no religion's worth its while that doesn't exact a price from its members. Wow. That's a quote. It's like a paraphrase. Yeah.

He's ingenious. And so when you come to it and I've had people say, if you really want to make a lot of money, start a religion. If you start one like Smith, because he was all about money and that's what the fruit of Mormonism has produced. That's how it works. that's what the fruit of mormonism has produced that's how it works and no wonder why yeshuans will never be a no like world power yeah never it's not a religion it's the anti-religion and it's never no it's so rough but it will really bless those who seek him in spirit and truth yeah there's nothing better what's the

product of religion it's it's horrific always but number seven this one's going to be tough for some people but mormonism has a sound understanding of the purpose of life that they give to their members now it's not to become a god yeah even though that's the, that's the secret handshake purpose, but it is to, um, go through a test and trial and to see how you're going to manage your choices in this life.

And that is something, uh, their approach to it is way off the mark. Because the way they say you enforce your strength in that is by doing rites, rituals, promises, obedience to laws and things. Where the Christian model is, I trust in Christ alone to empower me to overcome the things of this flesh.

The Mormons have an absolute reverse way. overcome the things of this flesh. The Mormons have an absolute reverse way, but they do admit that there is a purpose to this life and it's how, and it's how to make choices that are going to honor God.

And that's why they don't, uh, agree with premarital sex and, and, and, and things that come up fleshly. Christians have a very different approach to it, but they do have that right, you know, and it's not that we would ever agree with their false fictional knowledge that we came from a pre-existence down to this earth to be tested and tried to see if we could become gods. That's, that's the whole mythos, but just the part that, that believers should mature and grow in their life choices, that is very biblical.

Yeah, that is what's really hard about articulating Yeshuans is it's a really nuanced shift. Like it's the shift is not that these efforts in life are wrong no it's the what they're based in the consequence of them it's like really what seem nuanced but are actually like massive changes but people it's like it's misunderstood for it's the same as like the save the mechanism of sin today and punishment and all these things that's where the but that's what's so sinister about religion is that it's it's those things that are what cause

the guilt and shame and stuff that's right but they come from a place that is kind of correct yes so it's like a really hard that's why it is such a masterful counterfeit yeah and so hard to debate with a member who does not can't see that yet and the thing that's hard about the counterfeit too is i think the product of mormonism that is built on that we're trying to that is built on that we're trying to clarify is more aligned with human nature to understand.

Oh yeah. Like being punished for your work. Yeah. That stuff is like, we can understand that we don't understand what Christ did. Like that's antithetical to And that's what's so great about what he did. Mormonism is based on how we work. Like naturally, it just makes sense. It's the ultimate humanist Christian organization.

Yeah. Yeah. And you see it. Yeah. Yeah. Humanist Christian. We could do a whole series on this. Finally, the one that is going to bother a lot of people, the Mormons are right. Oh, wait, one more thing about how they do right. They teach right, but they go about it the wrong way. I had someone ask me the other day about a political leader in the world today and about a number of things that that political leader is doing and i was itemized with those things and i'll just use an example i think they said something like is it wrong to demand that

uh immigrants show their papers or show proof that they're citizens and i said no nothing wrong with that at all is it wrong to you know build a wall if we need to do that nothing whatever it is nothing wrong but the means by which this certain political leader is doing it is frightening as fluckaroo so frightening and that's the same thing with mormonism yeah yeah real faith cares about the means yeah it seems like that can be a maybe a blanket statement that said it's tricky because we we talk like love when you don't feel it you still do it that's kind

of the opposite where it's like the outcome is actually what matters and love you show that's not the means i don't know that it gets dicey no it does get dicey but like it does seem like the purpose of the whole thing is the means not the actual outcome right and that's the difference between teleological ethics yeah and deontological ethics which is what he clarifies as what we're doing at yeshuans yeah versus religion teleological meaning outcome based yeah deontological meaning duty duty based to god means based yeah yeah

uh and the final one uh on the subject is the lds reject the man-made doctrine of the trinity and just recently for the first time that I've ever heard in years, their new prophet, Dallin Oaks, he says, why we don't believe in the Trinity. He literally quotes that from the pulpit. So they know this is a hitch in the world of Christianity.

They're going to gain Christian recruits. They are. Through doing that, I think, because the Trinity is being debunked so much right now. Attack, debunked. Eternal hell is being attacked, debunked. The Mormons don't believe in that eternal hell. Yeah. Yeah. And they boast it. Yeah. Like, they're right to be proud of these, like, sort of correct things that Joseph Smith tapped into.

He denied those, but he gave a completely fictional response to what God really is. But based in things that make a lot of sense. Of course. And feel really good. Yes, and are are the human mind. Yes. So I'm glad. This is a really good sit down with you and I, because we are able to see the mechanism that this thing is and why it's so slippery to be able to put your hands around it.

Yeah. And why there are so many damn good people in the Mormon church, because like we've said, they want to do good. Yeah. The whole thing is where their heart is and people do not hear us clearly when we're distinguishing individual Mormons from Mormonism. Right.

And I wanted to ask at one point, like that's generally when a Christian apologist is arguing with you about Mormonism, they're coming from the hypothetical position of this person when they call themselves Mormon is prescribing to all that mormonism demands right and that's i wanted to ask you like hypothetically is that person way like a christian quote unquote it's all predicated on the heart because like it's possible to believe literally every single thing about their own works, about their worthiness, all that stuff.

Okay. Yeah. Because their heart might be genuine toward pleasing God and wanting to do his will, but their methods are so askew. And that's where I believe. believe they're going to be really surprised, which is why I want them to know now. Okay. I don't want my brother Bo to do all of these things for the church to die and have God say, Bo, my son, come on in. And then for God to let him know that that was a waste of his time in life.

Yeah. You don't want that? I don't want him to experience that I want him to realize that all of that stuff does nothing. Yeah for him before God It's his heart and his love. Yeah that matters and for my whole family and friends Yeah, but also to know that their heart is if their heart is alright in that church.

They're okay Absolutely. They just like a catholic yeah anybody else that that that is a big distinguisher of you you even think so the as warped as mormonism doctrine the doctrine and the foundation of it is yeah one can still have the right heart in that absolutely like can someone have the right heart in like the depths and the full practice of like satanism yeah yeah that's what it i think the position that you take is that there's no way of thought that actually takes over the heart no like the heart and the heart being this thing that you can't discern you can't even discern

in yourself like it's so deep in there but yeah there's still something yeah and that would you say that that's like a faith that you have that that's the the case like you know that that's like a faith that you have, that that's the case? Do you know that that's true? I'd say it's faith based in Scripture because we know from the Scripture that God examines the heart.

And so the flip side to what you just said, and I agree to a Satanist or a Mormon, right, could be right with God, is that he also knows your heart. Mormon, right? Could be right with God, is that he also knows your heart. So if you were a Mormon so that you could be rich and powerful and comfortable and not pursue God, he knows that.

Oh yeah. There's been Yeshuans right alongside us that we think have all the knowledge that would indicate their heart is in the right place. And it's like way far away and that is why we made the stance together that look at denominations affiliations even practice and belief doctrinal is not what god is going to judge a person on he's going to judge the contents the motivations the drivers of their heart and that is as sobering of a fact as to say you could be a satanist or a mormon or what practicing and it won't matter to him you know

it's it's that is it but and but again you would you say you know that that's true well in a spiritual sense i would say i'm sold out on that i'm convicted and i'll tell you why because everything i do because we preach a subjective faith is i interpret it through my own subjective experience and uh my brain my mind is jacked up my will i i want to stop eating and i can't yeah uh and my emotions someone cuts me off i get really mad do not are not what god is judging me on because they're part of my flesh in

this world and he sent his son to take care of that but he knows what i'm feeling and thinking in my heart in the presence of those failures and if i'm humble and broken for my ways or if I'm gloating in them. Yeah. And those, like, like I said, you don't even know those things. No. And the circumstances of life help us if we're interested in figuring them out, help us to see where our heart's at.

Ding. That's the point. As evidenced by last Sunday's teaching, because I had to go through a personal experience and I didn't even know what resided in my heart. And you guys, after 40 years of seeking, it was dark. So, I mean, you. But that's the thing. That's like, that's your heart. To find the dark, get rid of it.

Yes. So the scripture says, the Psalmist says, Lord, shine a light in my heart, reveal to me what I don't even know, because those are the things that are really getting us. So to bring it back to Mormonism or to religion, that's what I think is so detrimental about religion is it keeps you from experience.

It does not allow you to test. And testing is the only way to learn. Like making a mistake is actually the only way to learn. So religion wants to keep you doing correct action when it's actually incorrect action that god teaches us that's why you're so freaking smart well no no because people don't get that the second corinthians says i am glorified in your weakness you see because he is shown to be strong when we are weak.

Religion makes us strong and puts blinders on our eyes, and we never investigate. You just summarized it in what you just said. Okay, and another one of those things where Mormonism gets it half right, or religion gets it half right, because we do think there is value to trying to live better but the living better is in love it's not in yeah so like there's just all these like crossed signals with what religion how they like um appropriate true things toward like false ends yeah but because i want to be like like you've had a bumper sticker made

before where it's like finally a church where what is it all the drunks and finally a church full of drunks whores liars and reprobates and that's just the staff it's so good and my And my evangelical teenage self was like, why? Dad. Yeah. Like, why? That's like promoting like hedonistic. Not promoting.

I know. Admitting. I know that it's not promoting. It's admitting. Yeah. That is the difference. That's the difference that people don't get. Yeah. When we are talking about things like that, we're not promoting. We're just admitting. That's the no because you're always you as even just as an individual is always trying to get over these there yeah whatever it is like deal with them or reconcile like and religion doesn't want to just be a drunk and oh no no but yeah and religion won't allow you to do that. Yeah. So really good.

That's all I've got. That was maybe a tangent from my end. No, it was a good insight, man. How are we doing on time? My computer died. So we're free floating here. If you were LDS, you would have powered it up. You would have gotten a battery. I wouldn't have had a dead computer if I was LDS.

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