Why are we so misread?

Why are we so misread? | Heart of the Matter EPIPHANY

Transcripts:

Dear friend, if you wanna feel better, don't let the devil make you toss this letter. If you've been crossed off by hoodoo, voodoo, the wizard or the loser. You got family trouble, man trouble, woman trouble, no life is a rubble You're looking for a true friend, or a true lover, or if you were living in the cover Well, I'm coming to your town to break it all down and help you with all of this I'm looking to help you find bliss, one day, one way, can't miss I'm here to tear all the walls down Doesn't matter if it's a large town or a small town

Just like Joshua and the famous walls of Jericho I'm here to tear down the institution But you must tell seven friends You must first bring seven friends And don't be selfish and keep this all to yourself And don't be selfish and keep this all to yourself And don't eat shellfish Hate is trying to take someone else's love for yourself But I'm here to tell you that love is trying to help someone else You need to see me right away so I can fix this You need to see me right away You need to see me right away so I can fix this

You need to see me right about now And if you are suffering a strange sickness Or someone is blocking up all of your success You need to see me right away so I can fix this success hello heart of the matter epiphany with delaney, Sean, daughter and dad, and we are, this is show number 20, we're talking truly about, this is, obviously this is going to prove we're not a YouTube, we're not searching, we're trying to get those of you who watch us to understand some difficult things. Last week, two days ago, we had Ratio Christi come and we presented them with another approach, kind of, it's a little bit different, of Sean the Baptist

coming in. And we had a back and forth with kids who have cut their teeth on Christianity. And we have found over the years of doing these interactions that what we are saying gets misunderstood. So Delaney and I thought, let's just sit down and talk together and invite you to please comment about what is not making sense you to please comment about what is not making sense and why there's this disconnect because often what happens and I'll just give this to you and you tell me what you think often what happens

is they come away with the idea that I don't believe in there being a true faith I project this kind of idea that do what you want. And I don't believe in teaching, helping people understand the Bible. They think none of that is true through what I'm saying. So help me and you, let's work through this and see if we can kind of diagnostically figure out where the problem is okay so yeah this is raw conversation that we're inviting you into to please comment after listening and uh give your input as well yeah from my perspective having listened to them a few times, having known you, having still working the way they do.

I work like them, but I also know your heart. So first off, it seems like the first problem is you do things in context. So you know you're speaking with a group of Christian apologists. So you're going to break down their beliefs rather than talk about what's the right belief with someone who doesn't believe at all.

You might be like, there's a way to believe, like you might actually do something else because they are already at the deconstructed part, but they have something constructed and you're pulling it back and you do that. And this time it was probably it's most where you got to the point where you're like, there's no definition of faith and love. There's no definition for this where there's no definition.

It was like breaking down language completely. And one kid's just like, I can't like... I can't even talk to you and he just like gives up, you know? So that tactic, I'm, I'm wondering actually from your perspective, like why, why not admit in those moments that you, in your perspective, why don't you admit that I do have logic or I do believe in a lot, like clearly there's something before that, that's more important to you.

That's not worth saying that for, do you know? Yeah. Well, what's behind my mind in this is, one, I'm talking to a group of young people who fancy themselves as apologists. I know what I will say in terms of argument or a polemic, a confrontation, so that they don't get an upper hand on me in that back and forth. Because what they're trying to do is get me to reason like they are.

Yeah, where they're going to tell you something that makes you go, oh, you're right on that. I'm, you know, like they're going to win the battle. Right. So what I'm doing is I am carefully phrasing everything, but here's the second part is I am, we are talking, and I think you and I talked about this. We're talking about two different realms.

One realm is how do we as followers of Christ One realm is how do we as followers of Christ relate to the rest of the world? Okay. So should we? Yeah. I feel the need when we get to this to like with the audience, explain a really brief like overview to then get to why Sean the Baptist does what he does. Is that, is that the best way to go about this? It's a way. It sounds like the best way.

Well, so really simply put, you believe the Bible says one thing and they believe the Bible says another. Is that true? I actually believe most of what they think the Bible says with a few exceptions. Okay. So, so it's more that you, we, I say you, but I'm with you on this, come from the observance of the world and the argument is actually what the teleological approach should be.

Is that right? Because whatever we do in this world in the name of faith is going to be teleological. Is that right? That's right. We are not talking deontologically, meaning what God wants, what God says. Yes. Because that comes through our teaching of the scripture and all that. But that is completely separate from these conversations.

Yeah. Teleologically, which means what works best for the most people in this world for the end result a shorthand of how i think of these words is the means and the ends like teleological is about the ends and you'll do whatever it takes to get people there deontological is about doing the means and not worrying what that means produces.

The means are the more important thing. So your criticism and where our audience has questions too. So there people are confused because you criticize that religion works teleologically. It cares about the ends. So a Christian cares about heaven and hell and that you're sinning and they call love correcting you now and hurting you in order to get you right for the end.

And so they're willing to oppress people or do whatever they need ridicule mock yes condemn all of it we and so you deconstruct that argument by being like it's not teleological but i think that might be where the problem is because we are we actually do propose a teleology but a better one we do but that said the reason we can propose a better teleology than what has gone on for 2,000 years in the realm of sharing, talking, is because we have a deontological understanding that's different than theirs.

Yes. They're still believing that Jesus is coming back. They're still believing that the church is important. Which is why I'm saying this beer belief in the Bible is different from theirs. This perspective on the Bible. Right. And what the Bible is, what it has meant.

And it's just like one of the bylines of one of the books we've put together is something like misinterpreting the purpose of the New Testament. And so that's what I'm kind of mixing in with the whole thing. And that's what's creating a lot of confusion. Yeah. So confusion is that the confusion is always because the Yeshuan approach has all the same ingredients, but mixes them very differently than a Christian does and like implements them.

They're all the same, whatever, um, facts, qualities. Yeah. Um, sin, hell, learning, growth, sacrifice, love. They're all in play for both parties. And a Yeshuan perceives it very differently than a Christian. That's what's the problem the thing that's confusing that i get even confused by by you is um why i'm not confused by it now i understand it but but the approach that you're taking is to break down it but but the approach that you're taking is to break down the apologetic approach because ultimately it's that christians the yeshuan perspective is that god allows

and so we should allow yes that's like the basis god allows so we should allow. That's like the basis. God allows, so we should allow. I think Christians think God condemns, God corrects, God enforces, so we should correct, condemn, and enforce. They pick the thing that God does and they do that. And they use the apostolic record narrative to justify that because Paul does that and argues and does this.

So they use that, but we say there was a reason he did that. So, okay. Okay. So God allows, I don't even know how to keep getting through this. Well, I think we have summarized that the biblical narrative is everything God has done. Yeah. And we see it as done. So why, like, we try really hard to not bring fulfillment into it though, because it's not about the doctrine.

Right. So I think below fulfillment is even something greater. And what is that? And that's, it's something about the Yeshuan view that things are subjective because God allows and loves, that's more fundamental because we are okay with someone who doesn't believe in fulfillment to be a Yeshuan. And we're okay.

Like doctrine is the thing that divides. That's why we don't start with that because doctrine divides. So more essential to, it seems like, is that. And that's why you're coming to these students and not being teaching them fulfillment first. You're getting at their approach. So there's something more. And also you didn't come to fulfillment.

You had this spirit before you understood fulfillment. Yeah, you've always been saying this. So that seems to be more important to Sean the Baptist. Is that right? Yeah, absolutely right. Fulfillment doesn't mean anything to Sean the Baptist. And what Sean the Baptist is doing is trying to get to the end of the road of what I have always seen God doing.

And he did it all. It does it all through the Bible, but religious people pick and choose and they become argumentative and accusing and this and that they don't see that through line of Genesis to revelation of God always being this way. Yeah. Yeah. So, so where you're coming from is that the, that God works now and has always worked.

If there isn't, if there is an objective truth that they're always asking you about, it's always like, do you believe in objective truth? There is an objective truth. And it's that everyone has an opinion. Everyone has an opinion that God has let you go explore the corners of the world. He lets you do that. He lets you choose him or not choose him in this life.

He sends the rain and the sun on the evil and the good. Yes. He has worked in your life outside of the institution. That's true. Right. So, if that's all true, are those objective truths to you? The problem is, I can't take those because i subjectively experience them and impose them on others as true because for others god is working with them maybe in a different way for instance maybe he has someone stay in the catholic church and i can't be the one to say that's not how it works yeah see so this is the problem we are dealing with a bunch of very paradoxical

elements to this whole thing and some people get it not many but some people get it but so many people do not it just seems like it i think is it is it correct to say that the subjectivity and the allowance is before the doctrine like that is more essential to this view okay so I want to answer that in the way that I think okay and that is the doctrine may be a standard monolith of truth, okay, that God has and it's there, it's true, it's true.

But the reality is, while that might be true, and I do believe that's true actually, human beings subjectively have to pursue all of it. So I would say that the subjective approach to living life belief, searching, seeking, all of it precedes the monolithic doctrine. Because we're talking about humans.

What religionists do is they take the monolithic doctrine and they say, this is it. Christians do this especially and but they forget that there were children born in kazakhstan raised by muslim parents who didn't get that same monolith and then god created that yes like that way that's right yeah and so in that liberty of god creating us so differently, there must be, in my estimation, again, this is my view, that he allows for that.

So we are focusing in on the monolith saying it must be understood. And we are trying to say that it is his spirit that says you might not even know everything written on the monolith because his spirit. that says you might not even know everything written on the monolith because it's spirit.

Okay, so maybe more essential rather than me saying the allowance and the subjectivity, it's the spirit. The spirit, the perspective that the spirit is primary is the distinction. It's the big distinction. But now let me come right back at you. When you say that, go ahead. Okay. So this is where, so I'm trying to like continue to remind myself of kind of even what we're talking about, because it's really hard to work through. And I'm sorry if you're listening to this, cause, but we got to labor through it.

So the spirit is primary. And if you say that, I, I, it, um, that the spirit bring primary to me is the proposition for the new teleological approach and i would agree that is the that's the teleology is the objective is that people work by the spirit if there's an end goal it's to get people to work by the spirit i would say that people work by the spirit.

If there's an end goal, it's to get people to work by the spirit. I would say that that would be the objective in this day and age because of all Christ has done. Absolutely. Right. Right. There's a biblical justification for it, but there's also an experiential proof that this is the case already. And so if we start there, then it might become more clear to people we're talking to that it's how do you grow by the Spirit? And yeah, it's by pursuing learning.

And then you pursue learning everywhere. And then you realize, oh, the Bible has a lot to learn from. And then you keep pursuing. And it's an individual's path to get there. And it will get there if they're going by the Spirit. okay so then the caveat is they would say you know well then what if someone by the Spirit thinks that they should eat their children okay so you always go back to the Bible yeah and then they say I thought the Bible yeah it's not okay so it's not the Bible it's it's love and allowance that's what I'm like that. Yeah. I get really, this is hard for me.

Well, it's hard for everybody because, but for me, it's very simple. I see it as very simple. And it's this God made us and gave us free will those who in their heart of hearts are seeking him will find him because he gives them the spirit and the fruit of that spirit will be manifest in their life and i don't have to worry about when they're misled i don't have to i don't have to worry about what they believe okay that's part of it them going off okay so okay so maybe that's part of it. Okay, so maybe that's part of the confusion, actually, is you will always answer with love.

And it's very confusing because love is only known by an individual. And it's even hardly known by yourself. Someone can't look at another person and know if they're loving. And you actually said that. I don't think you've said that before. You said that in this last one and that cleared it up for people.

It's the metric of faith and love is just for yourself to understand where you're at with God. Yeah. It's a self-examination. Yes. But you pull that from the Bible. Right. And I feel like there, why not appeal to other reasons for love outside the Bible? I appeal to the biblical definition of love, the biblical definition, because it embodies the love that Christ exhibited in his incarnation.

And that justification enables me to say, I think that I'm going to choose to follow that metric rather than any other definition of love but I have to go to the Bible to find it so Bible studies essential but if it's not applicable to us so it becomes so hard for them to understand the difference between we are talking about how Christians relate to the world versus how Christians mature and grow okay well that's true This is the thing is I can explain it from the top down of what the perspective is, but from like the other side, that's where it gets confused. But so we could sit here and give a presentation on why we believe

what we believe and that's not hard. But when you're trying to tell it to the other side, it gets so confused. So why though? So to go to keep going down that road, you, you don't only pull from the Bible to justify the perspective on love. You refer to Kierkegaard or to whoever else that also helps you come to understand Christ and what Christ did, you know? Yeah. So, uh, that's true.

And, but I always couch what Kierkegaard or Jung or anybody else says by what the Bible says love is. If they start to teach something about love, that's out of harmony with what the Bible says, then I If they start to teach something about love that's out of harmony with what the Bible says, then I discount that thing.

So I don't teach another version of love if it's inconsistent with the love that is described in the Bible. Okay. So to step back, the confusion once again is you have a perspective that's very established that the bible's through line is love and unity and through self-sacrifice yes humility and faith and then self-sacrifice and love and that will create unity in the world uh with individuals together and through god teleologically in practice in this world of all these different things yes okay so that's the so So I just, maybe my question, my question for you is why is it a problem to talk about that with someone that doesn't believe in the Bible?

Why, why? I avoid the topic of doctrine if the doctrine is of allowance. Do you get what I'm saying? I do. Because when you bring in the Bible, right there, you're shutting doors. It's true. Yeah. And when you bring in the Bible, then it also becomes, because these guys believed in the Bible, I believe in the Bible, and we're going at it.

So when you bring that in, what it does, and this is what it's always done. It's divided groups up because it's the written scripture that we can cite. Okay. Yeah. That's why. um, only, only defend yourself with the Bible and also say it doesn't matter. So it's like, to, I, I personally don't think it's true that only the Bible works in your life.

I guess I'm challenging that claim. I know you back everything up with the Bible. There's no question. But I think there's other inputs for learning. There's plenty of inputs that I've learned from as a man, a spirit of man, this life, this world, philosophy, what we do. That's how the spirit works. Right.

But that's how the spirit of man works. You don't think the spirit of God works in the hearts of individuals outside of the Bible? No, I think the spirit of God works in individuals by faith and love alone. By faith and love alone. Teleologically, we are going by the wisdom of man too, on how to get things done in this world how that all of that religious stuff so i do draw from those other sources when it comes to being a man in this world okay but with god it's only faith and love as provided by the spirit okay Okay, so when talking to a group then, the argument, from my perspective, it seems like the argument for Sean the Baptist is that you're coming to them and you're saying, why are you arguing with someone next to you?

Yeah. That's the first. And then when they ask, what should we do? It's you say faith and love. And when they ask why, you say that's what the spirit is doing. Like at the core. I probably won't even say that's what the spirit is doing because there's some groups that don't believe in the spirit. Okay. But like at its core, that's what you're believing.

At its core. That's what you're believing at its core that's what i believe the spirit like at its core the fruit is what is important to you and that is faith and love yeah the fruit of the spirit is more important than knowing it's the Spirit doing that. Absolutely. Okay. What's confusing about that is that that's teleological.

That is a end product focus. In this world, you're right. Okay. And then the justification for it is the Bible. Yeah. And then it's to break down teleological stuff. And then it's saying that there aren't definitions for those things. Do you get what I'm saying? Well, I get what you're saying, I think. But teleologically, I don't think there are definitions deontologically i think it's riddled with definitions okay so that is maybe what's confusing is because it seems like a teleological argument that faith and love are the product of what we do

and we think the spirit is the cause of it and the cause is the secondary problem that we can argue after we talk about the fruit right but then the fruit doesn't have definition so it's like so it's like teleologically it's a teleological argument that doesn't have a definition okay that's what's confusing to kids right and so i would suggest that faith has a definition love is the more difficult one okay okay maybe instead it's that this isn't a teleological argument because that would look like a end product in someone's life

that you can measure and see and i don't know if that's true well i don't think it's so much us measuring that's part of the problem it's us allowing the freedom for someone to say, I have faith in God and say, okay. And if someone says, and I try to love, we say, okay, I am with you in that. I want to unite with you.

Okay. So, but isn't that a deontological, like a means, like it's an argument that we should focus on means rather than ends. Yeah. Because the ends are between the individual and God. Right. The means are part of this world. Yeah. And in this world, we are human and we have different beliefs and things. I'm trying to say in this world, Christians should be known for saying, I have faith too.

Yes. And I try to love too. And, you know, and I would agree that the definitions of love are endless with people. So that's a very sticky wicket. But there has to be liberty there too. A Muslim can say, depending on how zealous they are, to me it's loving to kill the infidel. And I think the Christian could say, do you want my opinion? And if he says no, then you say fine.

And he kills you. Being a Christian means giving them the liberty to live, believe, think, and do what they want. Okay. So maybe actually at the core of the confusion is to me that we're saying it's a fruit based like i think that is what's the confusing part is to say we measure things by their fruit because um that that part is true but it comes it to me it belongs in the next step of the teaching era.

Okay. In the part where, like, they decide they want that, then it's like, oh, okay. The way to grow is learning by your fruit. But the objective out on the front lines before someone decides to come in is not fruit-based. to come in is not fruit based.

It's not about what it produces because what it produces is maybe you'll get killed, maybe you'll lose all your money, maybe they'll hate you. That's not teleological. Teleological is linear like a telescope like it's getting better. That's not necessarily true it's the deontological choice of faith and love but there's it and if you don't want to define it then it can't be teleological in my opinion it can't be about fruit it can't be defined by fruit because fruit is a product that, do you get what I'm saying? So then what do you suggest? I feel like you are coming to people to suggest deontology instead of teleology.

I think you're right. Like plainly. Yeah. It doesn't have to do with God. Doesn't have to do with, well, deontology is the right way to do what God wants. That's superimposed by me upon anyone who listens to me. I believe there is a right way to do what God wants us to do. And that's deontological. That's our duty to God.

And the Christian duty to God was plain, Christian duty, by the way, not Muslim, Jew, the Christian duty to God, according to the guy we follow, is believe on me and love. So we do that irrespective of anything else. We do that. And that's my deontological promotion to Christians. Let's do that. Now it becomes teleological.

Okay. So another layer that's confusing is that the approach is different for Christians and others. It is. That gets the conversation confused because you're at once arguing with Christians about how they would argue with a non-Christian. So there's like layers of where you're talking to them about how to treat this.

And they're like, well, why are you talking to me like that? Because this is a different audience. It is. That's something else. And that is something we always are facing with these groups. But I could not do this personally if I didn't have a foundation, which has given me the liberty to see this and do it.

And that foundation being the scripture and Christ and his life and his death and his resurrection and return and all that so that group believes in many of those same things they are my people and so but if I got that's the problem is that we're going to get out if we go out in the desert and we have 100 people and 25% are Muslim, Jew, Christian. The Christians are going to be the ones who are going to be... If I just say, you guys have the faith you want, Jews, and the Jews and the Muslims will fight, and have the faith you want, that's a subjective thing between you and God.

And just if that faith is good faith, like Sartre talks about, if it's a good faith, then you'll try to accept each other and give them the liberty to do the same. But what I realized is 25% of that group, they don't realize I base this all on what their beliefs are. And yeah. Okay.

So, so to me, when you go to a group of Christians, I think it's essential to talk about your perspective on the Bible. Yeah. Okay. I think that's essential because it's, it's based on Christ and it's, it's not out of the blue. They're not going to hear it. If you're just, you know, saying it's all the spirit, they're going to say, what if someone kills someone? It's, it's rooted in a very specific idea of what God did through the Bible. Right. And how the Bible relates to us now.

But then you're getting into doctrinal, you know. Right. And then you spend all your time on the doctrine. And then they just want to debate the doctrine. And it defeats the very purpose that we're trying to bring. So what I would suggest, listen to you, is that you take on the mantle of explaining our view of the Bible without getting into a doctrinal back and forth.

In fact, you can even excuse yourself and saying, I haven't studied it. So you could ask me questions and I can tell you what I think. you lay out our view of the Bible and then I come in and I explain everything else, then we won't get bogged down into these, well, what about this? What about that? I think so, because it just takes it off the table. They know what you believe in the Bible.

It's not this like hidden. That is probably why it gets confused because we come in and it feels like they're like, like you're trying to play like word games because you're appeal to the Bible. And then you're saying the Bible doesn't, and they don't understand the perspective on the Bible you have in the first place.

And that's, so we've just learned that is essential for us to have any, uh, uh, progress in talking to a Christian group like Ratio Christi. Yeah. Is that they have to first understand our view of the Bible. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So it seems like it's a layers thing. There's the outermost layer of, and this is a Yeshuan approach, would you say? And this is a yeshuan approach, would you say? This is how yeshuans do things? We're trying to figure this out.

Okay. Well, we could call this the yeshuan approach. I guess you could call yourself a yeshuan if you don't do this. I don't know. We're figuring it out. like the, it's a, um, perspective that has a different approach to the external worlds and a different approach to growth in the spirit as well. And man, you were just.

Did you lose it? Yeah, but. The, okay, so the layer, and then the layers correspond with different audiences. So, Sean the Baptist has different audiences. Yes. And so let's define the different layers. The goal and primary care of a Yeshuan is the spirit in somebody's heart. And a Muslim will have that.

And that's the frontline outermost, how you relate to people. It's like the, um, jawbreaker example, like the outer layer is how you're connecting to the another jawbreaker and that's just allowing them. And the second layer is, okay, wait, let's stop there. So what's the purpose from your perspective in your study? Why does God want that rather than telling someone when they're wrong? Why does God want that? Because in order for true sharing and growth to occur, the barriers have to be getting removed.

Yeah. So that's... Okay. So it's almost like a logical... Or like a... an approach. It's an approach. There's a little bit of a formula to what to do to start to grow. Okay. Now I'm going to interrupt you. The thing that's hard for people to get is that at that approach, the external colored part of the jawbreaker, God is acceptable of anybody who's in that.

Yes. Fully. Okay. Yeah. And they can be in the, in right next to the throne in the New Jerusalem. Absolutely. And this is hard for people to get, but that's the reality. So that reality allows us not to stress of do they know Jesus' name, the Trinity? Do they understand the Bible? We are speaking to them from a very different place automatically.

Okay. So if we're talking to a whole group of people that have no idea that we believe in Yeshua, we would talk to them with almost a pragmatic approach. Super pragmatic. like the only way we're gonna function together is by accepting each other right that kind of argument is that right yes because and that's what caused us in the ministry to create a united front yeah because the only way we're gonna get rid of what has been done for thousands of years by humans is to start there.

Okay. Let's allow people to have the faith, non-doctrinally defined faith that they claim to have and to say, I join with you as someone of faith. Mormon, Jehovah's witness, the Christians don't allow this. Okay. Yeah. Okay. The Christians don't allow it and we can talk. That's another layer. It's a deeper layer and we'll get to that. But, but to the outermost surface is united in arms pragmatically. Yes. Pragmatically. Okay. So that might be in my, I guess this is, no, it's not the case. Like you, how you approach the ratio of Christy kids is totally, I think it's very effective and it's good for them to be confused.

I guess. And it's purposeful. Yeah, I know it is. So I'm not. Because the confused ones who want truth will go. The rest majority will just be like. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I'm not trying to. No, it's okay. When I'm talking, I i'm just it makes sense to the root of it okay so because okay that that because the at least in this most recent weekend they were like it's not fair of you to appeal to any kind of logic because you're saying it's athenian and we should be Jerusalem and there's no definition for the words. That's not true because at the outermost

surface it's only logic and at the inner surface it's logic but it's a different kind. Well I think it's the logic of God in a sense of, look, you know, our world can get along if we allow that outer layer to first exist, to first exist. And then we can start to work on, Hey, you're my friend.

I've been hanging out with you. We go to have beer. We go to ball games. We're sitting there at a party and they start talking about your faith. And the Muslim says, I believe. And then you might say, yeah, I believe in a God this way. And then you become their friend who accepts them unconditionally. You sit with the homosexual who says, I don't think God loves me, I'm gay.

And you say, well, I tend to think he thinks he does love you as your and you build the bonds that break down the resistance that dogma automatically puts up and divides us and has us kill each other about right okay okay so and the reason yeah the reason that layer doesn't exist right now is because of the study the inner layer of dogma like you're saying religion okay men doctrine dogma okay and that's what our study in the bible has helped eliminate and so that's where it starts to get tough to know when to introduce that in the groups and when not and so it's very difficult this stuff

and you get misunderstood and that's why we're doing this but so going from the outer layer we have united front if you have faith see so when if i say that the group would say what if they have faith in the devil and then i have to respond to what so what yeah right i guess okay so so the outer layer is the united front.

It's pragmatic. It's looking at the world, knowing that everybody has their perspectives. God's, we still believe in God. So we got to reconcile that. So then the inner layer is education. We've talked about that, but I just, I'm curious why, if it's, if we're, if the audience is a Christian audience and it's the inner layer, why not present the biblical perspective, not in the details, but in at least acknowledging I see the arc of the Bible as having these things that we still see evidenced today. Allowance of people to do free choice, Him working and changing the incarnation and

fulfillment and ending and like the spirit changing, being in people, love. And so I think that as I listened to that, that makes such a great presentational sense. And it would really help clear up a lot in the minds of anyone who's listening. And I think you should be the one to do that. Well, but I guess it's hard for me to think about doing that because it's like doctrine doesn't matter.

See, it's hard to do. I know. It's like so. Right. I'm really having trouble. Doctrine matters once we have unity because then there's the fruit of the spirit the way we believe to keep us from killing each other and dividing when we disagree. Okay. At the core of it, it's really that doctrine doesn't matter for a different, doctrine doesn't matter for your standing with God.

I think that's more of a clear way of saying it. But I guarantee you that would be, that would cause the imam and the rabbi and the pastor to stand up and say, you're a heretic. Well, they already say it's, I'm saying, as opposed to saying doctrine doesn't matter ever for no reason that the what you're saying when you say doctrine doesn't matter to people is that God loves you anyway right even with their thinking you're saying doctrine will not change your life if you know it or not and that's not true no that's

not true you come to grow so it's the placement of where the matter is, where it affects you, what comes first and what comes second. Right. So the outside of the jawbreaker is the one thing. But and that's why as you get into it relationally and in maturity in your faith and in your trying to love, the doctrine starts to become more important.

and you're trying to love, the doctrine starts to become more important. Yes, definitely. And that's why we have this conflict because you and I know doctrine means everything to me. Yes. Yeah. Okay. But in the interpersonal exterior of the jawbreaker, that should not be what we lead with. Okay. Yeah. I think that's so interesting to me.

Why did you point out that someone would stand up and say you're a heretic? Cause everything else seems way more heretical to say, because this is what creates religion. Each religion says, we know what God's doctrine is and you better follow it. Right. Well, that's what we're trying to break down. Right. And if you say it doesn't matter to God, that completely destroys the barriers of their religion.

But why point that out? Did you not say that before? Don't you say that? I say it, and there's a kickback from that. Yeah. That's where the kickback's going to come. I'm trying to point out that when you say doctrine doesn't matter people hear it as there is no value to doctrine okay there's no and that's not true that needs to be clarified you've just uncovered a a chink in our presentational armor yeah i think that might be also at the core you got to re-watch this and take notes so you know what you're doing with all this because chime in guys i it's the purpose in place like you you pointed out earlier

misinterpreting the purpose in place it's a misinterpretation right well people would argue that in itself is a dogma is a doctrinal position that doctrine doesn't matter but whatever like what i mean if you get in the realm of arguing then everybody can outwit everybody else but here's the other problem and this is why it's so convoluted for for me to articulate it well it's that because christ did everything for us and because he gave his spirit and because the fruit of the spirit is love and because and that it's peaceable and joyful and all those things.

Doctrine doesn't matter. Okay. At all. I understand. Yeah. But you will come. Okay. Okay. you will come to a better doctrine if you start from that place or the place of love. Like there's a starting place. The doctrine like has a place in as much as it helps you love amen and the confusing part for people is that you self-refer to the doctrine to justify that and it just is it seems like that's that's at the, a united front level of the outside of the jawbreaker.

It's the pragmatic argument. The spirit in the world pragmatically is like, it's not going to work if you aren't loving each other. Yeah. I'm not sure if I can parlay off that point because um i'm sorry no no no this is this is a hard episode for everybody and this is what we do every day i'm a alert enough and have enough energy when you live and know delaney enough and have enough energy. When you live and know Delaney, this is what happens in our relationship. This is the sounding board that I go with because it does test the things we're

trying to say. And she's trying to make an improvement on things. And that's why we are asking you, our audience of a couple hundred people, to please write in what's confusing to you or what makes sense or what we can do to improve. Now, I know that my stuff with Ratio Christi, when I get argumentative and I get attacking with them, it's part of the shtick, but it's also part of my personality.

But I'm trying to get rid of that and i am far more that way with christians than i would be with a buddhist or a a a muslim or a hindu with them i'll just be it's okay but i feel like they know better and so i'm going to come harder at them by using the scripture that you know i've spent my life learning using the scripture and then saying the scripture doesn't matter that's at the core of the whole.

I know. And I don't know what to do with that. It's where it's the where the matter is. They and that's why it is at the core. From the perspective on the Bible that you have when you're talking to Christians. If you're going to cite the Bible. when you're talking to Christians, if you're going to cite the Bible, it's either cite the Bible and claim the perspective or don't cite it and talk about the pragmatics.

But to give some kickback, to cite the Bible always includes who was it said to? I know. Why was it said to them then? That's what I mean. So claim the perspective. Claim it.

was it said to i know why was it said to them that's what i mean so claim the perspective claim it i know but but to do that creates the immediate argument between our own group but it doesn't need to be an argument the what okay so the the claimed perspective would be that the point of the bible would be that the point of the Bible was that it is a historical record of something that happened. And the thing we take away from it is God's love for people and how he allows and the tension between you and the world and working through that.

So the place of doctrine is in this realm. So it gets into the two realms thing. And the two realms are a doctrinal position of sorts. They are. Like the place of sin, law. I use the scripture to, yeah, to justify it. Like, so like, and the, the thing that you are doing that they're not giving you credit for, and that isn't communicated is you're not saying they need to believe that doctrine, but they say that you need to believe theirs.

That's right. So always very different. That is different. Like this is speaking a perspective that is valid and is not allowed. Right. When you believe in God, you have dedicated your whole life. You live by the fruits of the spirit. And so it really, at the core of your exchange with these Christians is why can't you allow that? Why doesn't your doctrine allow that? And, and that, that's not necessarily like a biblical question well the problem Delaney is that they do that to me but they came here to Utah to do it to

the Mormons I know and the the the Catholic I mean the Catholics the Muslims and the Jews and the Buddhists will do it to each other yeah so they're not alone I mean everybody is trying to take a proprietary ownership stance on things and to tell you you've got to we our position is you can do anything yeah so so there's a difference between you coming to someone you never say this there's a difference between you speaking to the institution versus the institution speaking to you right those are very different types of

saying you need to or whatever like you're speaking to the oppressor i'm sorry to make use that language it's annoying to me but like they have the control and hurt people with it and you're trying to break that apart to allow, they speak truth to someone else to make them conform. Right. You speak to allow.

Right. So those are very different things. Remember that because that is central to what we're doing. Yes. And when you are doing something to allow the people who do to restrict hate you. Hate it. Yeah. And okay. So what's at the core of your motivation and heart with Christians when you talk to them? To liberate them from false ideas that do not sustain what Christ came to bring.

Okay. So yeah, that might not come through. Like, I think they might be feeling like you're trying to teach them the correct doctrine. And it's to release them from needing the correct doctrine. Which we share, but they won't accept it. Yeah. Yeah. And I get that. Which we share, but they won't accept it. Yeah.

And I get that. And I am big on correct doctrine for right thinking and maturity. But it's only to those who want it through education. It's not through dogma that you have to do this because I say so. And the education, the distinguisher is that that correct doctrine and education only helps you in this world yeah it does not help you and that is what's so that's what's off that's right they think at the core of it they think that aligning yourself in this world through mind body soul spirit or mind body soul or mind, body, soul, mind, will, emotion

are going to translate to the next world. That's right, because that's what religion teaches them. Yeah. But we have separated that out. And we've said, well, you have a life here. God has given you dominion over this world. You have a spirit of man in you to make all your decisions, what church you go to, what religion you belong to, how much you seek, how much you want to mature and grow. That's a subjective decision on your part.

We sustain whatever you say. Okay. So, so maybe, sorry to do this, but maybe actually the Christian layer is also a pragmatic argument. Like it's very biblically backed up but before they can get to the biblical justification they need to understand um the heart and like because there's a there's an argument that it's like if someone is a a murderer, you bring these things up, these exceptions, like, can they, can they not know God? If someone has, do you think there's a limit to that? And they, there's something wrong with that thinking that they, they, they think that

the mind will and emotion carry to the heavenly realms in realms. In logic, there's something wrong with that. Outside of the Bible, don't you think? Well, I think, yeah, that's because outside of the Bible, the logic's ridiculous. Yes. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Because we say the mind, will, and emotion go with you, and God is, you're going to be accountable and all that.

But the way we have broken it up is that your mind is always going to be F'd. Your will will always be F'd because if it's not, you're going to, you're going to be perfect. Okay. So those are like, those are like observations you have in the world. They are a philosophy.

And that's the thing that's really important, too, is I'm a biblical philosopher. I'm not a theologian. Right. And so I see that if you look at things and just so let's just talk about that just on this part. Can you tell me, do you believe that any human on earth has a perfect mind in terms of their thinking. No, not at all. Do they have emotions that are impervious to failure? And do they have a will that is perfect for God? No.

But can they have a heart that desires to do right and to do good and to do it well, and they feel bad when they don't? Yeah. God looks at the heart. Okay. So the will, body, and emotions don't go with us. Okay. So that is a philosophy. It's a philosophy. And that is, I feel like that's the motivating perspective behind how you see the Bible.

I'm sure it is. I'm sure it is. Yeah. If we all see the Bible how we'm sure it is. I'm sure it is. If we all see the Bible how we see it, Yeah. that's your philosophy. And no one has to follow that philosophy. No, but you bringing that to a Christian audience and saying, you don't have to believe this philosophy, you don't have to believe the doctrine, but hear a perspective.

Like, and they hear it and it's really biblically based. That is the, where the liberty will come from. Like, and then they'll start to see the Bible in a different way. Like that seems more essential for Sean the Baptist. Okay.

Now, so now restate that in terms of what you think i should do just say well i think you should approach it it did what you just said now put it in that way okay i i think but i i want to hear why you wouldn't do this well tell me what you think i should and i'll tell you why i would or wouldn't i think you should approach, I think you should claim your biblical philosophy more. I think you should teach this philosophy of how the things that Christianity thinks that will transfer to the next life, how that doesn't make sense. Your mind, your will, and emotion with an empathetic heart, you go through with them.

What about someone with schizophrenia? You bring up these things and it's like, what does God do with them? And then it's like, where does the Bible say whatever shit they say? Cause it's like, what does God do with them? And then it's like, where does the Bible say whatever shit they say? Because it's going to be insane.

And you're like, that doesn't make sense. What if we see the Bible this way? It's like, because we each come at the Bible with the eyes we're going to see it. So introduce them to your eyes. Like you have new eyes. And I can hear that. And I will start to think about how I can do that. No, no, no, no no no no but just understand once you do that you get the yeah but yeah but yeah but and so then it becomes the very thing you don't want to happen I know but but but that's what you care about. That is. It is. And I'm taking what you're saying very seriously

because I think it has a lot of merit. I think, one, we should go forward and say, I want you to understand right out the gate, my dad's a biblical philosopher. That's what he is. He has studied, he's taught, he's gone through the Bible. You may not agree with his philosophy, but that is what he's coming with you at. Secondly, this is how we view the Bible.

You instruct on that. Then when I come, I can come in and start using how God is not giving us a doctrine dogma test to see if he loves us or not. And how and then break it down that it's you know religion wants you to believe that it's your mind your will and your emotion that God is looking at as a human in this fallen world where you know we are so surrounded by things to mislead us you know and religion wants you to believe that but the fact of the matter is the scripture is clear that God looks upon the heart.

And the heart is a very different part of us. And we want to speak to the heart of the Muslim, the heart of the Mormon, the heart of the Jew. And so we're working through some things now that I'm going to start to bring into it. This is really good. And in the Bible, he looked at the heart. That's right. He looked at the heart.

's right he looked at the heart he does not look on the outer appearance and in the bible paul said i mean i want to do good but i can't maybe that's what that's what it is is the heart it's looking that god cares about the heart that's what we're arguing yeah we argue that for that for a Christian or for a Muslim. For a Muslim.

It's both. Here's the thing, though. But if you go with that, the Christian will say, yeah, but Psalm says the heart is deceitful. Who can know it? You put it into context. You're going to get that. I know. There's not. And the Muslim will say, that is not true. It's what you do. Yeah. Right. Because they're under the law. The Mormons will say, it's what you do.

And my argument is that's what religion wants you to believe. But all that you do is either playing church or it's sinful. Either way, it is not what God's looking at. He's looking at your heart. And I'm trying to say in united front, let's give everybody who claim to have love and claim to have faith in a god of some sort okay so like in that moment i would think you would actually say what we do affects our lives here that's right so that's the difference though right rarely you'll say it but like the counterpoint is always it doesn't matter kind of thing.

Right. That's my knee-jerk philosophical response to win the philosophical argument. But you're dead on right. Yeah. What you do with your mind, will, and emotion, you pay for here. Yeah. This is law. It matters. Yeah. Where it matters is the difference. And what God cares about, He cares about what you do, what you do.

Maybe he'll work with that, but it's not that you helped your neighbor that he's maybe it's when you killed someone that he's going to work with it. Like we don't know. That's scary to say, but you know, like, and then admittedly, God would naturally want our heart to transfer to our mind, will, and emotion so that we can be better on this earth so that we can do better things instead of worse things.

I'm not against that, but to him, it's all heart, all heart. So you can do all kinds of great things for your neighbor, but if your heart's wrong, he's like, okay. So, okay. So the question is always, it's either, do you believe in objective truth? It's, um, uh, you don't believe in the Bible.

And then it's, why are you talking to us? If you think all of this, why does it matter you to talk to us? And I feel like that, it's those three questions at the core of it, it's the liberty thing. Like it's, you care, like the truth of God is being obscured. That's not the reasoning though, because they would say they're doing the same thing. So what's at the core of that question of why are we talking to them? Because we can't use the same arguments that they use.

Right. Because that's where the language... And I would say, honestly, we think that our understanding perspective of the Bible at play brings more liberty than what men have done with the Bible for 2000 years. And it brings more love and it brings more light. It brings more humility. That's confusing. Why? Because to talk about the Bible at all. Okay. But you've just Why? Because to talk about the Bible at all.

Okay. But you've just told me I should talk about the Bible. No, I'm saying you should own your, like, before the Bible motivation. Because if we all see the Bible how we're going to see it, see the Bible how we're gonna see it you have a way of seeing it that's produced a really unique perspective on the Bible right that but before that you're like your subjective lens is what's unique about it yeah and we're about education right and so I'm coming to you to teach you something you've never heard.

And if you say you care about the Bible and God, consider this perspective because you haven't considered that. And that isn't coming across the transit to the audience. No, that's not coming across. Okay, so let's remember that because that will improve it too. And I'm learning all kinds of things from you right now about what to do.

It's gonna take some practice. That's why it's hard to have this conversation like you shouldn't change no no no I should but I'm not going to change in my zeal or love no but I will change some things if they're less effective because if they're less effective that means they are not bringing giving them the opportunity to be free. It's just that you, there are certain moments where you don't say something where I'm surprised you don't say it.

It's because I'm wrapped up in my mind, will and emotion. And I'm a human. No, I know. This is where the failure of me comes forward. Okay, so really, like, because what we believe is education, pursuing knowledge, pursuing the Bible, which means pursuing all the commentary on it. Yeah. Pursuing, that's essential, is pursuing the Bible means...

considering everything that's been said about it, not just one. And you have done that. And so you are coming to them without condemnation of what they're doing, but with a perspective that's like, this is better. I'm sorry. This is a better perspective. And you think that we should approach it with that? I think it's fine to say it's better because but yeah to say but to upfront be like this is my opinion I don't think you're gonna go to heaven or hell if you believe this I think this world will be better if you believe this it's this that that's it

like the result the product of your perspective coming out into these people would be this life, not the next. Okay. Do you agree with that though? I think I'm agreeing, but I'm not sure I'm following because I'm starting to get tired. How long have we gone? 108. Ooh. Sorry, guys. I think next week, let's continue on.

No, it feels boring. It's not boring. No, this is essential to what we do in the ministry. What's boring is to just repeat the same stuff people have done forever. And they have not given themselves the chance to see what a failure it is in this world. This might be boring to our audience. If you are bored, move on.

We are here to try to publicly bring this together. And I am not ashamed to sit here with you and to work through this. If it's not sitting on the edge of your seat, exciting, we are working on something that is so significant to liberating people. And you cannot do a greater work for God, in my opinion, in my philosophy, than to liberate people. Yeah. Yeah. And that is all people.

And that comes with these things we're talking about. That's in this life. It is in this life. That's what, I think that's all, But I think that's all we, maybe that's at the core of it. Might be. To just, to make it clear that this work is for this life. Our work is to help people in this life. We think they are fine with God. We're helping this life and religion does not help this life.

It makes it people put in bondage i gotta chew on that because you might be striking to the root yeah i really gotta think on it to admit it because you but you've been doing that you say i'm a prophet of the spirit of man people don't understand when you say that that's you being like take it or leave it it's that, it's that this work is for this life.

Yeah. And the more free you are, the better your life will be, the harder it will be, but the more in touch with God you'll be. Like, it's not about heaven and hell. Right. Because that, and that is theologically dead in harmony with the fact that there was a thief hanging on a cross and Jesus said, today you'll be with me in paradise. What do they do with that? It's insane.

I don't know. It's insane. And it also is because I'm popping now. It's also very much in harmony with our view of living and the humanitarian side and the art and the music and the film and how all of this makes for life more abundantly yeah and that we think that the former models do not so i think we've made some really good ground okay and in my mind it's starting to click into yeah i think you're right okay does that make sense yeah boom thank you so much thank you for spending this hour with us. Listen, watch Sunday This Week Sunday Schooled

because it is going to bring it like madly to a place of real, true understanding philosophically and then even biblically. That's awesome. Yeah. This coming Sunday. Yeah. Allically. That's awesome. Yeah. This coming Sunday. Yeah. All right. See you all. Bye.

We can do it all, all, all We can do it all, all, all We can do it all, all, all We can do it all, all, all We can do it all, all, all We can do it all, all, all you you you you you you you you you you you you you you